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The mystery poops

4K views 35 replies 12 participants last post by  Castlemaid 
#1 ·
Maya's saga continues.

To recap: she did fine on Wellness puppy food for the first 5 weeks we had her, but she has had problems with diarrhea ever since then, a period of about 5 months. We've done fecal analyses, blood work, antibiotics, probiotics, limited ingredient food, vitamin B12 injections, etc etc.

GI panel was negative for EPI, but showed that her cobalamin levels were low. After two months of injections her levels had actually dropped LOWER. I think the vet said her pancreatic enzymes were elevated - results that were the opposite of what you would expect from EPI, possibly indicative of an inflammatory process of the pancreas.

The new plan is now to try Maya on Science Diet ZD. We will also switch to a different kind of cobalamin injection that a small percentage of animals respond to better. If these things don't help, more blood work to look for Addison's disease, and if those results are inconclusive we'll go for an ultrasound. Last option would be an intestinal biopsy.

Oy vey!!

In the meantime - I am bit concerned about not being able to give her any treats or anything that isn't the ZD, since we have been using high value treats in our attempt to deal with her reactivity. She is very food-motivated and will eat pretty much anything, so I should be able to use just canned ZD baked as little treats for training otherwise, but it was the really good stuff we were using to distract her from reacting to other dogs.

As a sidenote, she now weighs 20-25 lbs less than one of her female littermates, for what that's worth.
 
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#2 ·
Do the vets suspect food intolerances? I'm assuming so, if they want to put Maya on Science Diet z/d. If they do suspect food intolerances, have you thought of doing the NutriScan test? We did it for Bash, who also had diarrhea for months on end, and discovered he's sensitive to all of the binders in kibble, as well as a few proteins. We promptly switched him to raw. He hasn't had diarrhea since.

I don't know if feeding raw is an option for you, but it may be worth a try! I hope you're able to figure out the problem soon. Diarrhea is no fun.
 
#7 · (Edited)
One big problem you run into Jessica, vets don't study nutrition. They rely on what Hills says. I would not use Science Diet any formula. I'd do what Nikki mentioned and maybe also find a holistic vet who has studies nutrition.

This article touches a little bit on it too:
The Problem with Allergen-Free Pet Food
Thanks, I will look at the article!

I remembered getting the sense that people on this forum are generally of the opinion that Science Diet is primarily a means to get more money from the clients, so I wasn't thrilled when I heard that was the recommendation at this point. I'd like to give it a chance, though. And it's not as if it was the first thing suggested by the vet (who has now started consulting with an internal medicine specialist regarding Maya's puzzling case) - only after trying several other approaches first. Her explanation was that the protein in these foods is broken down into such small elements that the dog's body doesn't even recognize it as such, and therefore does not initiate the allergic response.

Although I think ZD might be the one we tried to feed to our cat Simon at one point many years ago - after sniffing the offending substance in his food dish, he turned around and swiped his back feet, just as if he was burying a mess in the litterbox, LOL! :laugh: There was no questioning what he thought about THAT.

Also, I do hesitate to accept a blanket statement about vets not knowing about nutrition. I don't reject it outright either, but I guess it reminds me of how some people allege that all healthcare professionals are scaremongers who push unnecessary treatment on patients in order to charge them more money, or out of plain ignorance. This may be the case for some individuals, yes, but every profession has its bad apples, and I very much feel those people are in the minority.

Apologies for the tangent, but I get especially upset when people make those statements about my own field of healthcare, neonatology. I was in an online "due date buddy" group during my pregnancy with my second child, and there were (educated and well-meaning) women who told other women in the group to refuse their obstetrician's recommendation of receiving antibiotics during labor if they were found to be GBS positive. Their argument was that antibiotics are worse for the baby than the potential of getting sick with the GBS, and their suggestion instead was for these women to insert cloves of garlic into their vaginas instead. They could refer to articles that explained how this was effective (although honestly I think you can find an article supporting pretty much anything on the internet). And it just really upsets me because I have seen babies die from GBS sepsis, and I personally don't see how taking that chance is in any way worth it. Antibiotics, when used appropriately, are not some great evil, and they can very literally be lifesavers.

Anyway, enough about garlic and vaginas - the point it, I'll take the idea that vets are only acting on what the prescription food companies tell them into consideration, but ultimately am willing to give the vet's suggestions a try. In the end, the results (or lack thereof) will be the deciding factor. The proof is in the poo!
 
#8 ·
I think there is one holistic vet in the area and they are not well versed in nutrition.

And I know what its like to be at wits end with poop. When we did prescription we went with the Iams intestinal plus, because I've heard good things about it. There is nothing wrong with giving a vet diet a try, there really is no way to find what will work for your dog without trying. Unfortunately the rx diet didn't work for Finn.

We did the ATCH and the ultrasound. For us everything was negative (as you know)...I really hope the vets can find some answers for you. Don't be afraid to seek a second opinion.

Did you ever try the enzymes? And which vet are you seeing now?
 
#12 · (Edited)
I definitely feel like we are following the path you have already traveled with Finn!

We go to Fairmount Animal Hospital. Dr. Passantino has also been consulting with a Dr. White, an internal medicine specialist at the emergency vet place. I've also been keeping a friend of mine who works as a veterinarian (out of state) filled in, to see what her thoughts on the matter are.

If none of these other things show any definitive diagnosis, we can do an intestinal biopsy when Maya gets spayed. I was planning on waiting until after her first heat cycle before spaying, which really could be any time in the next few months now.

Do you mean, did we try pancreatic enzymes? No, although I admit I did think to myself "If everyone keeps thinking it might really be EPI even though the first round of bloodwork was negative, can't we just try giving her the enzymes and watch her poop instead of spending all the money on repeat bloodwork?". But I think her pancreatic enzyme levels were actually elevated in her last GI panel.
 
#10 · (Edited)
We traveled 2 hours one way, once a month, for about 8 years to see our holistic vet! It was well worth it!;)


Name
Phone, Address
State, Zip, Country
Additional Information
Aiken, Tina
DVM
INTEGRATIVE ANIMAL CARE
518-329-5213
3051 STATE ROUTE 82
Ancramdale
NY
12503
United States
www.integrativeanimalcare.com
EQUINE, SMALL ANIMAL
Acupuncture, Acupuncture (IVAS), Applied Kinesiology, Chinese Herbs, Chiropractic, Clinical Nutrition, Conventional Medicine, Glandular Therapy, Homotoxicology, Nutrition, Ozone Therapy, Pulsating Magnetic Therapy, Western Herbs
Alvarez, Leilani
DVM
THE ANIMAL MEDICAL CENTER
212-329-8631
510 E. 62nd Street
New York
NY
10065
USA
www.amcny.com
SMALL ANIMAL
Acupuncture, Acupuncture (IVAS), Chinese Herbs, Chinese Herbs (IVAS), Clinical Nutrition, Conventional Medicine, Electromagnetic therapy: EAV - Interro -Biotron II - etc, Homeopathy, Magnetic Therapy, Massage Therapy, Nutrition, OTHER(fill in below), Pulsating Magnetic Therapy, Reiki, Western Herbs
Anders, Ronald
DVM, CCRP
COUNTY ANIMAL CLINIC
419-678-3610
800 North Seventh Street
Coldwater
OH
45828
United States
www.countyanimalclinic.net
AVIAN, Bovine, Bovine/Equine, Dairy, EQUINE, EXOTIC, FARM, FELINE, HOUSE CALLS, Large animal, Mixed, MIXED ANIMAL, SMALL ANIMAL
Acupuncture, Acupuncture (IVAS), Applied Kinesiology, Bach Flowers, Chinese Herbs, Chiropractic, Chiropractic (Network), Clinical Nutrition, Color Therapy, Conventional Medicine, Glandular Therapy, Homeopathy, Homeopathy-Classical, Homotoxicology, Magnetic Therapy, Nutrition, Osteopathy, Ozone Therapy, VOM, Western Herbs

Carillo, Victoria
DVM
Pet Lover's Veterinary Home Health Care
516-353-7186
61 Robin Road
Rocky Point
NY
11778
USA
HOUSE CALLS, SMALL ANIMAL
Acupuncture, Bach Flowers, Chinese Herbs, Chiropractic, Conventional Medicine, Homeopathy, Homeopathy-Classical, Homotoxicology, Reiki, VOM, Western Herbs

Donato, Lisa J
DVM
VETERINARY ACUPUNCTURE AND HEALING ARTS
516-242-7209
P.O. BOX 333
Albertson
NY
11507
United States
www.vaaha.com
HOUSE CALLS, SMALL ANIMAL
Acupuncture, Acupuncture (CHI), Chinese Herbs, Chinese Herbs (Chi Institute), Chiropractic, Chiropractic (IVCA), Chiropractic (Options for Animals), Conventional Medicine, Glandular Therapy, Homeopathy, Homotoxicology, Massage Therapy, Nutrition, OTHER(fill in below), Western Herbs
Ehrsam, Beatrice
DVM
NEW PALTZ ANIMAL HOSPITAL
845-255-5055
790 Chestnut Ridge Rd
Chestnut Ridge
NY
10977
United States
SMALL ANIMAL
Acupuncture, Acupuncture (IVAS), Bach Flowers, Chinese Herbs, Chiropractic, Clinical Nutrition, Conventional Medicine, Glandular Therapy, Massage Therapy, Nutrition, VOM, Western Herbs
Fallek, Marcie
DVM
Animal Natural Healing Center
203-254-8642
248 Alden Street
Fairfield
CT
06842
USA
www.holisticvet.us
SMALL ANIMAL
Acupuncture, Acupuncture (IVAS), Bach Flowers, Clinical Nutrition, Glandular Therapy, Homeopathy-Classical, IAT (Immuno-Augmentive Therapy), Massage Therapy, Osteopathy, Western Herbs
Fallek, Marcie
DVM
Animal Natural Healing Center
212-216-9177
40 Exchange Pl. TRS 3rd Flr
New York
NY
10005
United States
www.holisticvet.us
HOUSE CALLS, SMALL ANIMAL
Acupuncture, Acupuncture (IVAS), Bach Flowers, Clinical Nutrition, Glandular Therapy, Homeopathy-Classical, IAT (Immuno-Augmentive Therapy), Massage Therapy, Osteopathy, Western Herbs

Gellman, Karen
DVM
The Wellness Center for Pets
607-227-5406
411 Old Taughannock Blvd.
Ithaca
NY
14850
US
ithacapetwellness.com
EQUINE, HOUSE CALLS, SMALL ANIMAL
Acupuncture (CSU), Acupuncture (IVAS), Chiropractic (AVCA), Glandular Therapy, Homotoxicology, IAT (Immuno-Augmentive Therapy), Massage Therapy, Nutrition, Ozone Therapy, Prolotherapy

Goldstein, Martin
DVM
SMITH RIDGE VETERINARY CENTER
914-533-6066
600 Oakridge Commons Plaza
South Salem
NY
10590
United States
www.smithridge.com
SMALL ANIMAL
Acupuncture, Chinese Herbs, Conventional Medicine, Glandular Therapy, Homeopathy, Massage Therapy, Nutrition, OTHER(fill in below), Ozone Therapy, Pulsating Magnetic Therapy, Reiki, Western Herbs

Haimann, Mark
DVM
ANIMAL HOLISTIC CARE
718-631-1396
47-41 LITTLE NECK PKWY
Little Neck
NY
11362
United States

AVIAN, EXOTIC, HOUSE CALLS, SMALL ANIMAL
Acupuncture, Applied Kinesiology, Bach Flowers, Chinese Herbs, Chiropractic, Clinical Nutrition, Conventional Medicine, Glandular Therapy, Homeopathy, IAT (Immuno-Augmentive Therapy), Magnetic Therapy, Nutrition, Reiki, Western Herbs

Lankenau, Cynthia
DVM
HOLISTIC CENTER FOR VETERINARY CARE

716-941-9477
9002 SUNSET DRIVE
Colden
NY
14033
United States
AVIAN, EQUINE, FARM, SMALL ANIMAL
Acupuncture, Acupuncture (IVAS), Bach Flowers, Chinese Herbs, Chiropractic, Chiropractic (AVCA), Clinical Nutrition, Glandular Therapy, Homeopathy, Homeopathy (AVH), Homotoxicology, Reiki, Western Herbs

Ochrymowych, Christina
DVM
KNOLL'S END ANIMAL HOSPITAL
607-657-8555
106 HARTWELL RD
Berkshire
NY
13736
United States
www.knollsend.com
SMALL ANIMAL
Acupuncture, Acupuncture (IVAS), Applied Kinesiology, Bach Flowers, Conventional Medicine, Homotoxicology, NAET
Ohlinger, Margaret
DVM
Lakeside Veterinary Services, LLC
607-535-2500
220 S. Catherine St
Montour Falls
NY
14865
United States
www.lakesideveterinaryservices.com
EQUINE, FARM, HOUSE CALLS, MIXED ANIMAL, SMALL ANIMAL
Acupuncture (CHI), Acupuncture (CSU), Bach Flowers, Chinese Herbs, Chinese Herbs (Chi Institute), Conventional Medicine, Homeopathy (AVH), Homeopathy-Classical, Nutrition, Pulsating Magnetic Therapy, Reiki, Western Herbs
O'Krepki, James
DVM
KNOLL'S END ANIMAL HOSPITAL
607-657-8555
106 HARTWELL RD
Berkshire
NY
13736
United States
www.knollsend.com
EQUINE, SMALL ANIMAL
Acupuncture, Acupuncture (IVAS), Applied Kinesiology, Bach Flowers, Chiropractic, Chiropractic (AVCA), Conventional Medicine, Homotoxicology, NAET

Scharf, Ronald
DVM
Animal Hospital of Niskayuna
518-785-9731
2764 Troy-Schenectady Road
Schenectady
NY
12309
USA
animalhospitalniskayuna.com
SMALL ANIMAL
Acupuncture, Acupuncture (IVAS), Conventional Medicine, Glandular Therapy, Homeopathy, Homeopathy-Classical, Nutrition

Selmer, Michel
DVM, CVA
Advanced Animal Care Center
631-367-7387
260 Evergreen Ave
Huntington Station
NY
11746
United States
www.advancedcareforpets.com
SMALL ANIMAL
Acupuncture (CHI), Chinese Herbs (Chi Institute), Clinical Nutrition, Conventional Medicine, Glandular Therapy, Nutrition, Western Herbs
Shoemaker, Judith
DVM
ALWAYS HELPFUL VETERINARY SERVICES
717-529-0526
305 NOTTINGHAM ROAD
Nottingham
PA
19362
United States
www.judithshoemaker.com#http://www.judithshoemaker.com#
EQUINE, FARM, MIXED ANIMAL, SMALL ANIMAL
Acupuncture, Acupuncture (IVAS), Applied Kinesiology, Bach Flowers, Chinese Herbs, Chiropractic, Chiropractic (AVCA), Craniosacral therapy, Electromagnetic therapy: EAV - Interro -Biotron II - etc, Glandular Therapy, Homeopathy, Homotoxicology, Nutrition, OTHER(fill in below), Ozone Therapy, Prolotherapy, Pulsating Magnetic Therapy, Rehabilitation Therapy, Western Herbs

Sikule, Susan
DVM
Just Cats Veterinary Clinic, P.C.
518-869-5779
2073 Western Ave
Guilderland
NY
12084
US
HOUSE CALLS, SMALL ANIMAL
Acupuncture, Chinese Herbs, Conventional Medicine, Nutrition

Winikoff, Sara
DVM
ROCKLAND HOLISTIC VETERINARY CARE
845-348-7729
626 ROUTE 303
Blauvelt
NY
10913
United States
AVIAN, EQUINE, EXOTIC, FARM, HOUSE CALLS, SMALL ANIMAL
Acupuncture, Chinese Herbs, Chiropractic, Conventional Medicine, Homeopathy, Nutrition, Western Herbs
Yasson, Michele
DVM
845-338-3300
10 Main Street, Suite 423
New Paltz
NY
12561
USA
www.holvet.net
SMALL ANIMAL
Acupuncture, Acupuncture (IVAS), Clinical Nutrition, Conventional Medicine, Glandular Therapy, Homeopathy, Homeopathy (AVH), Homeopathy-Classical, Homotoxicology, Nutrition


Moms:)
 
#14 ·
Thank you for the input, everyone.

She could obviously stand to put on some more weight, her ribs are fairly prominent, but I was wondering - is comparing the weights of littermates of the same sex at all indicative? Beyond the factors of diet and exercise, do littermates tend to be in the same ballpark for weight? They are only 8 months old, so still growing. Maya is 45 lbs and going nowhere fast, one of her sisters is 65-70 lbs. Does that mean that Maya "should" normally weigh about that much, or is there really too much variation within a litter to say that?
 
#16 ·
I wonder this all the time. Was Finn meant to be smaller? Was it a deficiency that didn't allow him to digest his food properly and therefore stunted his growth? I guess we will never know as our dogs don't seem to process food normally.

Did anyone ever recommend metronidazole or any antibiotic? Im thinking that helped Finn (not that Maya has the same thing)...
 
#15 ·
NutriScan:
Some are not in favor of Dr. Dodds NutriScan because of the "study" not being published yet, but this test has help many on this site, my Grand-Dog included. I emailed Dr. Dodds last week and she relayed they hope to have it published soon. It is an easy at home test where you place a piece of cotton cording in the dogs mouth so that it collects saliva and simply mail it to the lab!

This test measures antibodies to certain foods in dog saliva. High antibody levels indicate that the dog has a food sensitivity and intolerance to that food or foods. Food intolerance or sensitivity is actually quite common whereas food allergy is rare. In fact, food intolerance is the third most common sensitivity condition in dogs and often can be easily remedied with a change in diet. Dr. Jean Dodds, NutriScan tests for the twenty most commonly ingested foods by dogs to provide you with specific results as to your dog's food intolerance's or sensitivities. Since it is a salivary test, you have the convenience to complete the test at home or at your veterinarian’s office. Best of all, you can have the results in approximately two weeks to help you put your dog on the right diet.
NutriScan is novel and patented and is not testing for food allergies, but rather tests for food sensitivities and intolerance. These are different body immune responses. Food allergy is a more immediate reaction mediated by production of IgE and IgG antibodies. Food sensitivity and intolerance, by contrast, measures a more delayed body response to offending foods by measuring production of IgA and IgM antibodies primarily in mucosal secretions from the bowel.”
Here is what they test for: turkey, rabbit, venison, potato, eggs, pork, soy, salmon, quinoa, millet, white fish, lentil, milk, soy, beef, wheat, oatmeal, lamb, sweet potato, barley, corn, rice, chicken, peanuts, and duck.
Cost is $280. Vet Allergy test cost about $500 for 24 antigens. http://nutriscan.org/the-nutriscan-difference/nutriscan-vs-skin-patchskin-prick-testing.html
www.nutriscan.org

Moms:)
 
#18 ·
Our vet pushed hard to try the prescription hydrolized protein food, too. I'm not saying they don't have a place, maybe they do. But we chose not to put Bash on it because even if it stopped the diarrhea, we still wouldn't know what was causing his diarrhea. We still would have had to do an elimination diet, we still would have had to try to add other foods in. At least with the NutriScan test, we had a starting point of what he could eat! The NutriScan test confirmed my suspicions that the binders in kibble were really what was causing problems for Bash. I wish we would have done it sooner!

On another note, I believe the enzymes people are suggesting would be digestive enzymes like those found in Sunday Sundae or other products like it.

Ultimately, you need to do what you feel is best for Maya. Only you can decide what that is. ;)
 
#20 ·
What are you feeding Maya currently? Have you changed her food? Any supplements or medications? Another nurse here - more detail about her bowel movements? How is her energy? Any pics?

Variation in size between littermates is normal. Don't look at just weight in numbers; look at the overall condition of the dog.
 
#26 · (Edited)
She has mostly been fed Wellness (LBP at first, then the limited ingredient version) but I did switch her to Fromm a couple of weeks ago. Not the grain-free one, though. The guy at the pet supply store suggested trying the standard version first, then switching to the grain-free variation if she seemed to not tolerate the other kind.

When the problem first reared its ugly head she was having very watery stools. After attempting different treatments (probiotics, antibiotics, Vitamin B12 injections, etc), the consistency is overall better - I would say maybe 80% of her stools are either firm, or soft but formed. The other 20% are still very loose. For a long time she was having about 6 bowel movements a day, some of them giant! I want to say lately it's calmed down more like 3 or 4 a day. Over the last few days she's had some really liquids ones, though. One at the park, and I felt bad but there was literally no way to "pick up" any of it!

She was on Proviable for a good long while. I recently started giving her the Sunday Sundae and FeedSentiels supplement.

Her energy level is fine, she has never acted like she didn't feel well through any of this. Her coat is in nice condition, she's just skinny.
 
#22 ·
Originally Posted by J-Boo View Post

Also, I do hesitate to accept a blanket statement about vets not knowing about nutrition.
I'm not knocking vets when I say that. They just don't study it. My vets have told me that. They rely a lot on the info from food companies. If you have something really out of the ordinary, out here they ask UC Davis or refer you there.
 
#23 ·
agree, even the best veterinary universities don't have a nutrition specialist on staff to help the dog/cats in aftercare...they refer you to a nutritionist from one of the big name kibble companies(whoever is supporting them with food donations, either Hills or Purina).

It is frustrating, because nutrition is so important in helping the body heal, specific conditions require specific diet, and one Rx kibble isn't as helpful as giving certain supplements and staying away from particular ingredients.

I had to do my own research(with the help from a few on this board and some great facebook pages) and set up a diet for my dog as he recovered from kidney failure. Not one vet I consulted gave me proper information, just said to feed their Rx kibble.
 
#27 ·
I know Maya has had all sorts of fecal tests, but have you asked for the Elisa test for giardia? Bash had all sorts of negative fecal tests before we asked for that one. Boom, giardia. Two rounds of panacur cleared that up (after a round of metronidazole which actually made things worse). The intermittent watery stool sounds a lot like what Bash had when he had giardia. Just something to consider.
 
#33 ·
Hmm, I don't know for sure. I know after a couple of regular fecal analyses were negative, they did a "diarrhea panel", which I thought looked for Giardia, but it's been a while now so I'm not sure if I just assumed that. I'll ask.
 
#34 ·
Hello, first post here.
I joined looking for info on digestive issues as our breed seems to have issues with them.
I wanted to ask a question or two and add my own "what has worked for us" info :eek:
First the questions, is it diarrhea or loose stool? There seems to be a difference, believe it or not! Diarrhea is uncontrollable apparently and loose stool is just that, the poops are regular in frequency but loose or runny.
So wondered about that, and I apologize if that's just too graphic :eek:

Secondly, what has worked for us here is safeguard wormer and metronidazole or flagyl. The stool samples were negative for giardia but our vet said it's easy to miss.
So we gave our boy Finn, whom we've had about 3 mos. now, a 5 day course of each and he's doing great now.
His stools were very soft, not watery but mushy and quite a lot of it. I edited this to say I was mistaken, it was 5 days of safeguard and 7 days of flagyl.
Now that he's done with the medications, his stools are firm and non runny.
Much easier to clean up!

I hope our experience helps!
 
#35 ·
Yup. Some other tips....Also clean up yard thoroughly. Put down some lime (can't hurt). Wash or toss toys. Disinfect water and food bowls regularly (dishwasher usually effective on hot wash hot dry)


Some parasite resistance is cropping up to metronidazole.

Vets do a fecal float in office or send out to the lab. Supposedly the "ELISA" lab test is more conclusive, but still can give false readings.
 
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