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Old 03-31-2014, 06:04 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Need help please. Video included to view sleep breathing

Mods, my apology if I a posting in the wrong section. I am a new member. I purchased a 3 yr old trained GSD (German import) from a breeder with a very good reputation. The dog is fabulous, wonderful temperament and amazing obedience. I noticed however he was low on energy. I have only owned him for 3 days. He had been in the US only 2 months, breeder had done some additional socialization work. The dog is sleeping in our room on carpet floor or the kuranda bed. He is having sleep apnea, stops breathing for a few seconds at a time. He also has labored breathing. This does not happen during the day when he takes naps. The breeder has the dog now so his vet can look at him. I am concerned because the vet said he had never heard of that. One google search and it is clear there are dogs with this issue. They tend to be overweight or flat faced dogs. Kobe is very fit and lean so weight is not an issue. Please if anyone knows of another owner who had this issue and corrected please let me know.

The videos are on You tube. Title is case sensitive. Search on. Kobe GSD breathing issues 1. There are two other videos numbered 2 and 3

Please post a response if you can help.
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Old 03-31-2014, 06:56 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I'll move this to the health section.

Hope the vet can figure out what's going on!
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Old 03-31-2014, 07:14 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I don't have advice for you but these appear to be your videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDDzunQqKCQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC8mU-RlzjE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBGC90Nt9Ic
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Old 03-31-2014, 10:25 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I only watched a little of the videos, but what you describe can actually be a normal thing with dogs.

Some dogs once they fully mature tend to be low key. Just because the dog was imported does not mean that it is going to necessarily be high energy. You also have to add in the fact that the dog has had a lot of changes in the last few months also. A vet visit is definitely a good plan to be certain there isn't something going on.

However, using my golden as an example, there are times when he's really deeply asleep where he has long pauses between breaths and I have actually counted his heart rate down around 48 when he gets that deeply asleep. When he breathes normally in a lighter version of sleep he may pause periodically for a few seconds before taking another breath. If he takes a deep breath, there is often a period of time before he starts up again. Myles is a very fit and athletic dog. His resting heart rate is usually around 60, which is not typical of most dogs, especially ones that aren't as active as he is.

And as far as labored breathing goes, my question is does there seem to be an increased inspiratory or expiratory effort? Is he breathing rapidly but the breaths are even, much like if he was panting? Does his tongue or gums appear to become purple with this kind of breathing? Generally speaking, very wide mouth, elbows pointed out, stretching the neck out. These are things a dog who is having labored breathing for whatever reason it could be (honestly the list is long) will generally look like.

I am curious why the breeder has the dog and his vet is looking at it. Is it because yours hadn't heard of this? Did your vet actually look at the dog or did you just describe things for them? If they did a physical exam on the dog and couldn't find anything amiss, it could simply be something normal for your dog. Hard to say, but it is something to think about.

I could go into more depth on why breathing slows when you are sleeping, lol. Though it will show my inner A&P nerd more than anything else. >>

Hopefully they can figure out something for you.
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Old 04-01-2014, 10:00 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Thank you for the response.

By labored breathing I mean he is taking in very deep and long breaths as if he is not getting enough air. I know some of the videos are long, but on several you will see those deep breaths. The breath is like what you would see after a dog stretches and takes one big gasp, but he continues on like that for 15 mins.
His mouth is generally closed all the time when sleeping. I have not noticed purple gums or tongue but I have been videoing for 3 day at night and not really sleeping so I am not sure how aware of his color I was.

I only have had the dog for 2 days and 3 nights. While I plan to use a local vet the breeder is only 35 minutes away and has a relationship with his vet. The breeder agreed to have the dog sleep at his home with him for observation followed by a vet visit. He is a very reputable guy, and just looking to take care of me and the dog.

My concern is the breathing stop bouts and sudden gasping for air are waking the dog up several times a night. When that happens he bolts to his feet very confused and it takes him awhile to settle back down.

I was hoping the kuranda bed would help as it suppose to distribute the dogs weight better, but soft bed, floor or the new dog bed does not seem to make a difference.

He is trained to crate sleep, but i had the crate in my daughters room. She is a pretty heavy sleeper but he was waking her up so I had him sleep in my room. So I know the crate will not help his sleep either.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Colie CVT View Post
I only watched a little of the videos, but what you describe can actually be a normal thing with dogs.

Some dogs once they fully mature tend to be low key. Just because the dog was imported does not mean that it is going to necessarily be high energy. You also have to add in the fact that the dog has had a lot of changes in the last few months also. A vet visit is definitely a good plan to be certain there isn't something going on.

However, using my golden as an example, there are times when he's really deeply asleep where he has long pauses between breaths and I have actually counted his heart rate down around 48 when he gets that deeply asleep. When he breathes normally in a lighter version of sleep he may pause periodically for a few seconds before taking another breath. If he takes a deep breath, there is often a period of time before he starts up again. Myles is a very fit and athletic dog. His resting heart rate is usually around 60, which is not typical of most dogs, especially ones that aren't as active as he is.

And as far as labored breathing goes, my question is does there seem to be an increased inspiratory or expiratory effort? Is he breathing rapidly but the breaths are even, much like if he was panting? Does his tongue or gums appear to become purple with this kind of breathing? Generally speaking, very wide mouth, elbows pointed out, stretching the neck out. These are things a dog who is having labored breathing for whatever reason it could be (honestly the list is long) will generally look like.

I am curious why the breeder has the dog and his vet is looking at it. Is it because yours hadn't heard of this? Did your vet actually look at the dog or did you just describe things for them? If they did a physical exam on the dog and couldn't find anything amiss, it could simply be something normal for your dog. Hard to say, but it is something to think about.

I could go into more depth on why breathing slows when you are sleeping, lol. Though it will show my inner A&P nerd more than anything else. >>

Hopefully they can figure out something for you.
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Old 04-01-2014, 11:07 AM   #6 (permalink)
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go to YOUR vet .

I did look at 3 videos -- the first one to the 10 minute mark.

I don't see that the breath is deep and long . I see short , shallow and rapid.

Not to alarm you , but for something to have your vet check , is heart function . That dog is in deep sleep , at rest for a long period before being taped . To my eye that heart is bouncing around as if the dog had just been in a heavy exercise mode.

this , heart? "My concern is the breathing stop bouts and sudden gasping for air are waking the dog up several times a night. When that happens he bolts to his feet very confused and it takes him awhile to settle back down."



give the dog a thorough physical -- heart rate at rest and after exertion.

I would send your broker the youtubes , not the dog .
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Old 04-01-2014, 01:02 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Carmen, thank you. The "broker" / breeder is a highly respected trainer who provides many of the local police depts here with dogs as well as selected companion dog for families. His policy is 100 percent refund (all your money back or another dog, Your choice) if for any reason you are not satisfied. After only 3 days I love this dog. I do not have a vet I personally trust yet. I was planning on having him checked next week before the two week trial was to establish that relationship and prepare for long term ownership. This issue just came up before that and I trust the breeder/trainer. He only manages a few dogs at a time for sale and keeps them in his home. Kobe was very well bonded to him and having him observered in a place he is familiar might help rule out anxiety related to my new home. He is being seen by two vets, one the breeders normal vet and one more in a surgical practice.

If he is physically cleared it may be stress or environmental and this was the best way to accomplish figuring all that out in the shortest time frame.

I also noticed his heart jumping all around at a high rate when he had been at rest for hours. I have not owned a GSD in 20 years, I forgot what was normal or not. That is why it is good to hear experienced owner feedback here
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Old 04-01-2014, 01:34 PM   #8 (permalink)
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deep sleep is when stress is obliterated -- no awareness . He just does not look like a dog that is stressed.

the heart seems erratic , too active for "down time".
that , unfortunately is where I would pay attention to at the moment.

can a heart be helped -- yes , stabilized Co Enzyme Q10 , taurine .

you said he was low on energy --- and that he wakes with a startle and is confused (spasm?) --- so the information I am giving is not to alarm or worry but to give you something to target your vet and / or your breeder broker in getting a solution --- I do hope it works out for all , including this good looking dog ! Nature's Corner: On the Topic of Dilated Cardiomyopathy in German Shepherds
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Old 04-02-2014, 05:20 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I spoke with the breeders vet. He told me the dog is fine. When I asked what diagnostic test were done to come to that conclusion he said all they did was listen to his heart. He said the high heart rate at rest in the video may be due to the dog dreaming. When I asked if there were other test that could have been done to test his heart and breathing function he said, sure but those cost thousands of dollars and I see no reason for that. I said really, you watched the video and think there is no reason to test. He said no that is just the way he breaths.

I have asked every GSD owner I know and all said their dogs does not exhibit that sleep behavior. Heart rate with their dogs at sleep is slower and breathing is not as rapid.

I was hoping for some explanation, at this point I do not feel comfortable with the purchase. He was a very, very expensive dog and while I planned for care in my post purchase budget spending thousands more for an issue I think the breeder should have pursued is not what I am inclined to do.
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Old 04-02-2014, 05:51 PM   #10 (permalink)
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the heart looks "large and flabby" . Last night I was packaging raw meat to put in the freezer . The dogs were asleep while I did so and not a one , not even the 12 year old Simon had anything similar .

Your worry goes past the dog sleeping , as you said he is also low on energy.
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