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conflicting Info from vet: coconut oil

11K views 90 replies 30 participants last post by  daisyrunner 
#1 ·
So, I'm a bit frustrated with my vet of 17 years. I took Abby in 3 weeks ago and brought up the fact she was constantly itching herself. Vet said it was the flea collar, so I took it off as instructed.

I had a question about Abby's Prozac dose so I called and left a msg for the vet yesterday and the tech called me back today. When I mentioned to the Tech about the ongoing itching Abby still has, and that it is getting better thanks to coconut oil, I was told I should stop the coconut oil asap and just give Abby benadryl 4 times daily. I said huh..? They said coconut oil would cause yeast to spread. I said to the tech I thought it was sugar that fueled yeast to spread..they said nope, the coconut oil would cause the yeast infection bigger issues and I should bring her in for a skin scraping and steroid shots!

So, I'm a bit confused on what to think. I'm a bit shocked at how quick my Vet is wanting to treat things with steroids so quickly, and their opinion on the coconut oil.

Last note.. The vet did not catch the yeast infection, however I brought Abby to a groomer this last weekend and the groomer brought it up to me that she thought Abby has a yeast infection due to the redness on the chest, belly, and other areas on her..the groomer seemed pretty knowledgeable and said the coconut oil would do amazing things over the weeks for Abby... so I went away feeling I was doing the right thing.
 
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#71 ·
quote
"I don't know enough about enzyme therapy to have a strong opinion on it. I do think it is important for readers to understand that using enzymes to treat cancer, immune disorders, and diabetes is not part of mainstream medicine."

retort -- "mainstream medicine" does not make breakthroughs --- that goes to the somewhat obsessive , eccentric research men and women , and thanks to them .
 
#73 ·
quote
retort -- "mainstream medicine" does not make breakthroughs --- that goes to the somewhat obsessive , eccentric research men and women , and thanks to them .
I beg to differ.

Doctors weigh in on 2013?s biggest medical breakthroughs | Toronto Star

Even way back....
"Originally noticed by a French medical student, Ernest Duchesne, in 1896. Penicillin was re-discovered by bacteriologist Alexander Fleming working at St. Mary's Hospital in London in 1928. He observed that a plate culture of Staphylococcus had been contaminated by a blue-green mold and that colonies of bacteria adjacent to the mold were being dissolved. Curious, Alexander Fleming grew the mold in a pure culture and found that it produced a substance that killed a number of disease-causing bacteria. Naming the substance penicillin, Dr. Fleming in 1929 published the results of his investigations, noting that his discovery might have therapeutic value if it could be produced in quantity.

Doctors working in main stream medical hospitals!
 
#74 · (Edited)
Banting and Best, Fleming, Pasteur , Bernard , Currie, Metchnikoff were NOT mainstream . Of course you are not going to have car mechanics - god bless them , we all need each other -- would not have the basic education from which imagination can soar and depart , thinking outside of the box .
The knowledge becomes mainstream, the metastudy .

your link asked the Dr's their opinions on the results , research teams, even commercial enterprise are all part of the breakthroughs.?
 
#75 ·
answer to "think research by Belfield satiates something like if we boost a dogs immune system we can impact allergies and itchy skin. He recommends adding a vitamins and mineral program in your feeding and limited ingredient kibble diet if you feed it.
What are your thoughts about adding vitamins and minerals to a prey model diet."

most foods now are mineral deficient , Bernerd Jensen Empty Harvest . Our soils and food are depleted. Kibbles tend to get their minerals and vitamins from the same source , China , lab/factory , inorganic , chemical based , pre-packs , basically used by all manufacturers of kibble , which although , many products , are made by mega corporations , monopolies .

minerals are necessary as the spark plug which activate catalytic activity of enzymes . Zinc is required for wound healing, immune function , sense of smell , and can be sourced from nuts and seeds (pumpkin) and dark greens such as chlorella -- also providing another very important missed mineral , magnesium. Without proper levels of magnesium you do not have proper glutathione levels which GatorBytes touched on -- , you do not have proper development of bone or bone density . It is not just calcium , but the ratio of calcium to magnesium.
Sources of magnesium -- again nuts and seeds -- pumpkin seeds , sesame seeds , which are also rich source of calcium , sunflower seeds. Chlorella . All ingredients that I use .
 
#76 ·
I started this thread to talk about coconut oil, but since there has been conversation of Vitamins, Minerals and Raw diet..let me ask this.

When a wolf catches its prey in the wild, doesn't the wolf consume most of what it caught? This would include the stomach..correct? So lets say it catches a deer or a rabbit, both consume grass, berries, veggies, etc... in the wild. And even though a wolf doesn't go around eating veggies alone, wouldn't the stomach contents from its prey then provide those nutrients he would not get otherwise?

Wouldn't it then make sense to supplement a Raw diet with some veggies and other nutrients that feeding proteins and fats alone wouldn't provide?
 
#78 ·
When we kill a deer during hunting season, and gut it out in the woods. Who consumes that? Anything that wants to. Fox, coyote, mice, birds, etc. It is usually gone in a couple of days.
 
#79 ·
Dr Mercola is even suggesting coconut oil for humans for the same reason we want to use it for our dogs, and more!
From all that I’ve seen Dr Mercola is more salesman than scientist. He might be right or not, but I really don’t trust him to be unbiased. Some of the stuff he’s posted about why his krill oil is superior is just silly, imo.

there are co-enzymes such as co-enzyme Q 10 , enzymes which come to "life" and make our bread leavened and tasty beer , make cheese , and fermented dairy , and even remove stains and odors in cleaning products.
Yeast & other micro-organisms are the star players in fermentation products. These micro-organisms are in fact alive, unlike enzymes, co-enzymes, vitamins & minerals.
 
#80 ·
response to this quote

" I do think it is important for readers to understand that using enzymes to treat cancer, immune disorders, and diabetes is not part of mainstream medicine"

---- there are digestive enzymes and then there are metabolic enzymes . 70 % possibly more of immunity begins in the digestive system. Proteolytic , or metabolic enzymes enter the bloodstream and break down proteins , which are abnormal in the bloodstream . This includes the fibrin coating of viruses, bacteria , protein from a disturbed digestive system such as leaky gut where protein enters the bloodsteam rather than being digested and metabolized . This last mentioned item , equals inflammation, which is what cancer is considered, a universal inflammation. Cancer cells have a protective fibrin coating.

From the American Cancer Society Enzyme Therapy



Metabolic enzymes if added to a diet would be bromelain and papain.

Undigested proteins in the blood excite a histamine response , which becomes an allergy , inflammation.
and so on .
The actual article from the link posted:

Enzyme Therapy

Enzyme Therapy
Other common name(s): digestive enzyme therapy, pancreatic enzyme therapy, systemic enzyme therapy, proteolytic enzyme therapy
Scientific/medical name(s): none
Description
Enzyme therapy involves taking enzyme supplements as an alternative form of cancer treatment. Enzymes are natural proteins that stimulate and accelerate many biological reactions in the body. Digestive enzymes, many of which are made in the pancreas, break down food and help with the absorption of nutrients into the blood. Metabolic enzymes build new cells and repair damaged ones in the blood, tissues, and organs.
Overview
Available scientific evidence does not support claims that enzyme supplements are effective in treating cancer.
How is it promoted for use?
Enzymes are sometimes used in mainstream medicine. For example, the approved chemotherapy drug asparaginase is an enzyme. Some enzymes are also used for other serious illnesses. Pancreatic enzymes may be given to treat digestive problems resulting from removal of the pancreas or certain diseases of the pancreas.
However, some alternative medicine practitioners claim that digestive enzyme supplements not only relieve digestive problems, such as ulcers and food allergies, but also strengthen the immune system, improve circulation, ease sore throat pain, aid weight loss, and relieve hay fever, ulcers, and rheumatoid arthritis. Proponents also claim that certain enzymes remove a protective coating from cancer cells, allowing white blood cells to identify and attack them.
What does it involve?
Human cells naturally produce about 10,000 different enzymes which are essential in normal metabolism. Enzyme supplements are extracted from animal organs and some plants such as pineapple and papaya (see Bromelain). Among the most popular enzyme supplements are pancreatic enzymes, which come from an animal pancreas.
Enzyme supplements are available in pills, capsules, and powders. Supplements often consist of combinations of several enzymes. Large amounts of the supplements are often taken each day. There is currently no established safe or effective dosage.
Enzyme therapy is a part of some forms of metabolic therapy, including Gerson therapy and the Kelley and Gonzalez programs. (For more detailed information on these regimens, see our documents on Gerson Therapy and Metabolic Therapy.)
What is the history behind it?
Pancreatic enzymes were reportedly first used to treat cancer in 1902 by John Beard, a Scottish scientist. German researchers later used enzyme therapy to treat patients with multiple sclerosis, cancer, and viral infections. Some enzyme mixtures are still commonly used in several European countries.
Dr. Edward Howell introduced enzyme therapy to the United States in the 1920s. He believed that by eating raw meat, people created an enzyme surplus in the body, which resulted in better health and increased resistance to disease. Other practitioners have advocated the use of enzyme therapy since then, often as part of a larger metabolic therapy regimen. At least one enzyme preparation is currently being studied in the United States for use along with chemotherapy in cancer patients.
What is the evidence?
There have been no well-designed studies showing that enzyme supplements are effective in treating cancer. Experts question whether enzymes taken by mouth can reach tumors through the bloodstream, as the enzymes are broken down into amino acids before being absorbed in the intestine.
Studies of enzyme supplements to ease the side effects of cancer treatment have had mixed results. Two studies done in India reported that side effects of radiation therapy in cancer patients taking pancreatic enzyme supplements were less severe than in those taking a placebo. However, these studies were not blinded, meaning patients and their doctors knew whether they were taking the actual enzymes. This means that the results might have been affected by the expectation of improvement, or placebo effect. A blinded German study in which patients did not know whether they were taking the enzymes or placebo pills did not find any benefit.
Several studies done mainly in Eastern Europe have looked at the possible effects of adding enzyme supplements to mainstream cancer treatment. They have generally found that supplements may improve quality of life and could possibly have other benefits. However, these studies are not considered scientifically strong. They looked back in time at patients who were already treated and were not randomized or blinded. A randomized study of the addition of enzyme therapy to standard chemotherapy for multiple myeloma patients is under way in the United States.
A small study of patients with pancreatic cancer—conducted by Dr. Nicholas Gonzalez and published in Nutrition and Cancer in 1999—found that patients treated with pancreatic enzymes survived longer than typical patients with pancreatic cancer. However, in a recent review of alternative cancer therapies, an expert in integrative oncology research methods noted that, "The study was small and obviously prone to several biases. Not only is the comparison with national averages unadjusted for confounders, but the principal results are based on patient selection; twelve patients who did not comply with treatment were excluded from analysis." Well-designed scientific studies control or adjust for confounders, factors besides the method being studied—such as age or cancer stage—that can affect outcome. They have a control group that receives the standard treatment alone, and they generally also include patients who did not complete treatment in the final analysis.
A randomized clinical trial has been sponsored by the National Cancer Institute to evaluate the Gonzalez regimen for treating pancreatic cancer, but no results of this trial have yet been published in a peer-reviewed medical journal.
Are there any possible problems or complications?
This product is sold as a dietary supplement in the United States. Unlike drugs (which must be tested before being allowed to be sold), the companies that make supplements are not required to prove to the Food and Drug Administration that their supplements are safe or effective, as long as they don't claim the supplements can prevent, treat, or cure any specific disease.
Some such products may not contain the amount of the herb or substance that is written on the label, and some may include other substances (contaminants). Actual amounts per dose may vary between brands or even between different batches of the same brand.
Most such supplements have not been tested to find out if they interact with medicines, foods, or other herbs and supplements. Even though some reports of interactions and harmful effects may be published, full studies of interactions and effects are not often available. Because of these limitations, any information on ill effects and interactions below should be considered incomplete.

There is very little information available on the safety of enzyme supplements. Some manufacturers recommend that people taking blood-thinning medications speak with their doctors before taking enzyme supplements.
Care should be taken to make sure that any diet containing raw meat or juices from raw meat is free from bacterial contamination, especially for people with weak immune systems.
Some people are allergic to the materials from which the enzymes are made. Be sure to know the source of any enzymes you are considering.
Women who are pregnant or breast-feeding should speak with their doctor before using this method. Relying on this type of treatment alone and avoiding or delaying conventional medical care for cancer, may have serious health consequences.

Carmen, the above article, which was originally linked in your response barely provides even weak support for treating cancer with enzyme therapy. It acknowledges that enzyme supplements are useful in treating particular metabolic disorders, but this knowledge has long been known, accepted & incorporated into general medical practices.

Cancer as a ‘universal inflammation’ is an overly simplistic & generalized statement. The role of inflammation in cancer is poorly understood & remains an evolving picture. Many, many questions remain to be answered. Discoveries most often simply spark even more questions. Cancer is the egregious breakdown, & subversion of regulatory systems, among them inflammatory responses. So far it doesn’t appear that the cure &/or prevention is as simple as controlling inflammation.

quote
"I don't know enough about enzyme therapy to have a strong opinion on it. I do think it is important for readers to understand that using enzymes to treat cancer, immune disorders, and diabetes is not part of mainstream medicine."

retort -- "mainstream medicine" does not make breakthroughs --- that goes to the somewhat obsessive , eccentric research men and women , and thanks to them .
Banting and Best, Fleming, Pasteur , Bernard , Currie, Metchnikoff were NOT mainstream .
One can certainly parse the meaning of ‘mainstream’ but by almost any definition these learned scientists were ‘mainstream’. Brilliant, fearless, creative, passionate and largely educated & supported by mainstream academia. This isn’t a ‘bad thing’. The support & encouragement of great minds lies at the root of many of modern medicines successes & breakthroughs. While these remarkable scientists deserve credit for their findings, the societies & institutions that educated, employed & encouraged them deserve recognition for that support, as well.
 
#81 ·
Quote:
there are co-enzymes such as co-enzyme Q 10 , enzymes which come to "life" and make our bread leavened and tasty beer , make cheese , and fermented dairy , and even remove stains and odors in cleaning products.
Yeast & other micro-organisms are the star players in fermentation products. These micro-organisms are in fact alive, unlike enzymes, co-enzymes, vitamins & minerals.

yes - I said enzymes which come to life, as in get busy , allow biochemical reactions to occur . I had said before that enzymes are catalysts . They activate chemical reactions which break down , pre-digest , decompose specific material - at specific pH levels. When heated above 118 degrees they become inactivated .

one study is looking at inflammation and the rapid turnover of cells and the increase in errors -- reduce that inflammation level , reduce the turnover rate , reduce potential errors and prolong telomere length
 
#82 ·
enzymes are activated in a very narrow , very specific range of conditions , pH , temperature, moisture , substrate. As long as the environment is conducive to them being active they will enable biochemical activity . Eventually they run out of energy and are absorbed as a protein . However once they are denatured , temperature over 118 (cooked) they are permanently inactivated.
 
#83 ·
Carmen, that info is little more than basic chemistry & does not really support claims that enzymes are a cure or an effective treatment/preventative for cancer. Perhaps they are, but the evidence so far is weak & contradictatory. Only the most poorly designed & controlled studies support such claims at this time.
 
#84 ·
not cure , not treatment , not preventive in a direct manner .

Enzymes both metabolic and digestive , animal and plant based , contribute to optimized digestion . A great deal of "life energy" is taken up by digestion and absorption, removing waste . 70 to 80 per cent of the immune system are seated in the digestive system.
When the vitality of the immune system is weakened many problems arise , allergies, inflammation, yeast , infections result . Maybe not as evident in youth , but there comes a time , determined by how undermined or unsupported the immune system has been , when the enzymes which were finite and given or present at birth have declined , so the problems tend to amplify and then you have a cascade of problems . Rapid decline , accelerated aging , onset of disease process which favour a weakened .
Cancer is opportunistic .
H pylori, (stomach) , HPV (cervical) hepatitis -- bacterial infections that may lead to greater problems .
Enzyme protease which dissolves proteins also dissolves the stealth coating of tumors , fibrin coating , so these rogue cells are destroyed before they have the chance to do much damage.
In Germany there is a government approved drug which combines mistletoe and digestive enzymes which has shown a increase in survival of cancer patients.
 
#85 ·
A great deal of energy is required to digest & process food. *shrug*A great deal is also required just to maintain body temperature, even in temperate climates. For those of us fortunate to live in a land of abundance this represents no real problem. We simply eat a nutricious diet (often too much!), & can readily maintain growth or stasis, whichever is required. The situation is the same with our pets. We feed 'em, often more carefully & with a greater eye to balance & nutrition, than we give our own diets.

Unfortunately, pb breeding has compromised the immune systems in many, perhaps most, dog breeds. Given their myriad health problems GSDs almost certainly belong on that list. NOTHING will take the place of the improved breeding that is needed...Breeding that is truly concerned with health, soundness & longevity.

Where is the hard data which supports the proposition that routine enzyme supplementation improves the canine immune system or even overall health & well being? Label me a Luddite, but healthy organisms require little, if any, nutritional or metabolic supplementation. IF a dog (or cat, horse, human) isn't thriving its diet & environment s/b optimized before adding supplements.

Many nutritional/metabolic supplements fall in the category of benign but unproven to provide any benefits. Under some circumstances I've used them & might well use them again. However, taking an informed gamble that they *might* help & won't hurt is all that is. There really is no clear support for the more grandiose claims made for supplements. Unfortunately, too often desparate, distraught people are led astray & given false hopes with inflated claims.

H pylori, (stomach) , HPV (cervical) hepatitis -- bacterial infections that may lead to greater problems
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. HPV is a virus, not a bacterium. Hepatitis is a condition that can result from viral, bacterial or enviromental agents.
 
#87 ·
I feed RAW & have for years. My*Wicked*Tribe did as well on kibble, both high end & mid-level kibble, as on RAW. With RAW the benefits that *I* have seen are far less solid waste & cleaner teeth. I'm happy to be feeding RAW but mine have all thrived on kibble, too. I switched to RAW b/c Orijen didn't cost a lot less & I couldn't see feeding kibble when it was almost as much as RAW & considerably less convenient. (It had to be shipped. Local choices are limited.)
 
#88 ·
Note, I understand others have very different experiences with both kibble & RAW. I've read of dogs that only do well on RAW & others that do much better on kibble. Ultimately, we need to do what works best for our dogs. There is a highly recommended allergy formula that I HATE. It's main ingredient is potatoes but if that's what my dog(s) thrived on I'd hold my nose & feed it. Many of those using it aren't pleased with the ingredient list but have found that it's the only food which relieves their poor dogs interminable allergic itching. In that case I'd not only feed it, but be glad it's available.
 
#90 ·
Sorry for the late response.

I am not disrespecting anyone’s opinion here in my following statements, nor am I trying to prove anyone wrong. Just sharing info that I have found in the past years from personal experience and personal info/learning from Holistic Vets, Homeotoxicoligists’ and Homeopath’s. After all…..isn’t sharing what has worked for YOU and others, to possibly help someone else, what’s it is all about?


First, the “scientific proof/studies” question/comments. I can speak from first-hand experience, personal research and use of what worked for my illness and our first German Shepherd who was near death from severe epi and other problems. If not for “Alternate” therapies, I, and my GSD may not have made it. My experiences and also, statements from the “Holistic” side of the illnesses, show that by using alternatives, other than drugs and poor quality prescription diets, could give an animal a better quality of life. These vets, after having seen dogs & cats in their practices over many years, use different modalities such as quality foods, supplements, homeopathics’, acupuncture, chiropractics, and other modalities. They may not be able to completely heal all of them, but have been able to correct and balance the illnesses’.


But when it comes to commercial food….. let’s face it……who has the millions of dollars it would cost to do a “study” going up against the big dog food conglomerates’ to prove that their ingredients are not of top nutritional quality, and most is what is left over/rejected from the human food chain or worse…..from disreputable countries!


As for food, my view, and what I've witnessed over the years, is that if a dog is having an issue, and you can afford to do so, why not take EVERYTHING out of the diet and control the ingredients? I don’t care if it’s raw or you cook it. You just don’t know if the dog is sensitive to just one little vitamin supplement in a commercial kibble. Then, after a trial of about 6 weeks, slowly begin adding one item at a time back into the diet and eventually the kibble, if that is what you choose to feed, to see if there is a reaction. Considering that most companies buy supplements in bulk, you know that they are not human grade certified items, unless of course they say so, which most don’t. Most imports for “animal use” can be from Asia which would include China…… then the question is “how thoroughly tested are these products?” Brings to mind the 2007 Melamine poisonings and the Jerky Treats of today! As for me (and my family), I have fed raw, ground meat and pulverized vegetables for almost 20 years now, to a variety of dogs from a 5 pound Italian Greyhound, to a 10 pound Maltease, to 60 pound Labs, to 5 various sized GSD’s with never one instance of anyone, dog or human getting ill. Although there are a few decent kibbles out there (again, MY opinion after researching ingredients) for me, most kibbles would be like eating McDonald's Chicken Nuggets and Fries 2 times daily for the rest of my life without throwing in some vegetables and lean meat. What is the end result years down the line with the dogs who eat feathers (in Royal Canin’s Anallergenic) by-products and potatoes? Will some dogs’ thrive on it???? Of course…..but how would you know WHICH dog would end up living a long disease free life on that food and what the future would hold for the health of another dog? There’s no way of knowing. Ultimately, and in some cases unfortunately, time would tell if it would take a toll on vital organs or the immune system, etc.


Abandon Western Medicine completely? No, that would be ignorant on my part. My husband just had a heart procedure done, and not doing well, but, it saved his life! A time and place for ALL types of medicine……conventional or alternative…..proven or just documented success.


What about alternative’s not working? Yeah, I had a HEAP of bottles in my cupboard, and a lot of food items, that, after trying for 6-8 weeks, went by the wayside......thousands of dollars from when my first GSD was sick. But eventually, I found what “worked” for MY particular dog! For me to have given up because a food item wasn't working or I was using an unconventional herbal or homeopathic product that wasn’t “scientifically proven” would have given ME and my dog a far different outcome in life.


What would life be like without some HOPE and possibly trying alternative methods when Western medicine fails? I know some of you have had a bad experience with holistic vet’s or alternative treatments, and THAT is truly unfortunate. It was possibly the wrong vet who didn’t have complete experience or understanding of an illness, just as there are those types of instances with vets in the Western medicine field.


My point here is that maybe we can all agree to disagree on different views of health and take into consideration the techniques that have actually proved successful and that have been recorded in the alternative veterinarians’ practices even if a “scientific study” hasn’t been done.

Just……consider the possibilities!

Moms:)
 
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