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conflicting Info from vet: coconut oil

11K views 90 replies 30 participants last post by  daisyrunner 
#1 ·
So, I'm a bit frustrated with my vet of 17 years. I took Abby in 3 weeks ago and brought up the fact she was constantly itching herself. Vet said it was the flea collar, so I took it off as instructed.

I had a question about Abby's Prozac dose so I called and left a msg for the vet yesterday and the tech called me back today. When I mentioned to the Tech about the ongoing itching Abby still has, and that it is getting better thanks to coconut oil, I was told I should stop the coconut oil asap and just give Abby benadryl 4 times daily. I said huh..? They said coconut oil would cause yeast to spread. I said to the tech I thought it was sugar that fueled yeast to spread..they said nope, the coconut oil would cause the yeast infection bigger issues and I should bring her in for a skin scraping and steroid shots!

So, I'm a bit confused on what to think. I'm a bit shocked at how quick my Vet is wanting to treat things with steroids so quickly, and their opinion on the coconut oil.

Last note.. The vet did not catch the yeast infection, however I brought Abby to a groomer this last weekend and the groomer brought it up to me that she thought Abby has a yeast infection due to the redness on the chest, belly, and other areas on her..the groomer seemed pretty knowledgeable and said the coconut oil would do amazing things over the weeks for Abby... so I went away feeling I was doing the right thing.
 
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#40 · (Edited)
I'm not saying LOVE the woman, and not saying every single dog out there can handle raw without specific guided instructions from a trained nutritionist if they have major problems. Just saying that she has some viable points for the following reasons.

Dogs' (Wolves’) were designed to get live enzymes from the fresh prey that they killed. Their pancreas only produces a certain amount of enzymes (they didn’t need a lot b/c they ate live foods before being domesticated) and if they are not getting the enzymes they need from their prey’s guts and entrails, they have to get it from somewhere to be able to digest, absorb, and assimilate their food PROPERLY. Not having enough enzymes to do this can create mal-digestion and or mal-absorption in some dogs. The dog may end up only partially digesting its food in the stomach, and partially fermenting it in the gut and not absorbing all the nutrients and vitamins in the food. The dry kibble or the canned foods we feed are cooked at high temperatures so they are depleted of their enzymes and are therefore not living foods. This causes the pancreas to over tax itself trying to keep up, which can eventually weaken it allowing toxins to build up in the system. This is a key time for issues like yeast, pancreatitis, epi, diarrhea, bad breath, doggy order, allergies, arthritis, skin issues and a compromised immune system (to name a few), take hold. Meaning, illness can surface just about any place in the body.
Many pet foods get a lot of their “protein” from grains instead of from meat. The dogs system was not designed to digest the complex proteins in grains so this is why a “grain free” diet is better for those dogs with issues. Also, many popular pet foods have wheat, corn or fish meal in them which most likely has been contaminated with Mycotoxins, which are toxins from mold and fungi. Another thing is that most “plant products” today are Genetically Modified (GMO’s) which create inflammatory conditions. And, there are some Bacteria’s called Endotoxins which are not destroyed during the cooking process of kibble. Pet food manufacturers do not test for these toxins. These are things that can also weaken or compromise the gut and/or immune system allowing illness to surface. Since 70% of the immune system lies in the digestive tract, a dogs’ immune system HAS to be functioning properly.


That's just my take on things! I had to learn the hard way with our first GSD that was near death. I know we all have different opinions ;) and I'm not trying to start a war here (LOL), just sharing my first hand experience! :D

Moms:)
 
#42 ·
The dry kibble or the canned foods we feed are cooked at high temperatures so they are depleted of their enzymes and are therefore not living foods. This causes the pancreas to over tax itself trying to keep up, which can eventually weaken it allowing toxins to build up in the system. This is a key time for issues like yeast, pancreatitis, epi, diarrhea, bad breath, doggy order, allergies, arthritis, skin issues and a compromised immune system (to name a few), take hold. Meaning, illness can surface just about any place in the body.
Since I have a girl with EPI, allergies and IBD I just have to follow up on this statement :) Can you provide some references that feeding kibble/canned foods can lead to the illnesses you mentioned please. I have questioned Nikki's veterinarians extensively about her health issues and genetics came up over and over but none provided info that feeding kibble can cause this.

One of the veterinarians is one of the best in this country at Texas A&M who is a small animal internist with a special emphasis on gastroenterology, endoscopy, pancreatology, and hepatology.

Not trying to start a war here either, just want to see some evidence.
 
#43 ·
look all around you --- these companies have a vested interest to take care of share holders -- bottom line . Dog food is a multi billion dollar industry . Look at the companies , Proctor and Gamble as example that produces chemical cleaning supplies, hygiene , cosmetics , and then they acquire a brand , change the formula , buy in huge volume , off shore ingredients and away you go. The ingredients may be short of going to landfill .

They compete , use aggressive advertising , hitting all the right emotional buttons so that they have and keep a market share.

How do they reconcile several levels , good ,better , best food at different price breaks . How do they offer products which appear to be different, appearing to compete against them -- yet are from the same makers . Different label.
In the 1939 GSD dog Review hardcover book there were competing adds for "dog-bread" as kibble was referred to , along side with butchers providing off cuts from food handled in a manner that our own food would be . When you live in a farm community and you know the farmers having deceased cow (delivering calf) picked up -- bloated in the heat , looking ready to explode , and being told matter of factly that it is going to dog food , you know differently .

When you do your own food you are responsible and in control for the quality , quantity and providing wholesome real additional vitamins and minerals .
 
#44 ·
Carmspack: I feed a home prepared diet and am fully aware of the benefits.

I want to see some evidence that kibble can cause illnesses like EPI, that is a pretty serious claim. There are many members here with EPI dogs and I am sure they would love to know also.
 
#53 ·
Carmspack: I want to see some evidence that kibble can cause illnesses like EPI, that is a pretty serious claim. There are many members here with EPI dogs and I am sure they would love to know also.
I doubt there is evidence that kibble on its own can cause EPI, research suggests it is genetic but that environmental factors such as emotional and/or physical stress may play a part in its development and severity.

As Momto2GSDs advises, the best food for our pets is that eaten by their wild cousins such as wolves, a natural diet provides the ideal fuel, cleans their teeth and keeps the animals in peak health, a raw natural diet acts as food and medicine combined.

I would imagine kibble may contribute to SIBO (now called SID) because if the EPI dog does not have enough enzymes (whether own or replacement) to digest the kibble then it may sit in stomach and ferment causing bacteria etc.
 
#45 ·
sure --- aflatoxins , so many kibbles recalled because of contamination, can affect pancreas and liver . Ironically , the kibble is high carbohydrate content , so the effect of the aflatoxin is amplified , (higher good protein content would have helped in absorption of nutrients) .

good article Study - Kibble: Never A Good Option

support the pancreas with broad range digestive enzymes
 
#46 ·
The dry kibble or the canned foods we feed are cooked at high temperatures so they are depleted of their enzymes and are therefore not living foods.
The presence or absence of enzymes doesn't determine whether a food is 'living'. Enzymes themselves aren't organisms & are neither living nor dead. I'm not even sure what you mean by the trem 'living foods'. Are you referring to the presence of beneficial organisms?

And, there are some Bacteria’s called Endotoxins which are not destroyed during the cooking process of kibble.
No, there are no such bacteria, although there are bacteria which produce endotoxins. It's true that endotoxins aren't heat labile, ie aren't destroyed by heat, as opposed to exotoxins (for example botulinum) which are heat labile, ie are destroyed by heat. This isn't a criticism, just a minor correction.
 
#47 ·
The notion of cooked food being "dead" food is junk science. This idea came from the raw food movement for humans, not dogs, originally. There are benefits to eating whole foods but this obsession with enzymes is misguided: The Truth About Raw Food and Enzymes | TakePart

There are other reasons to avoid processed kibble. The extrusion process does affect protein quality and there is the risk of advanced glycation endproducts which are what you get when animal protein reacts with sugar (why BBQ tastes SO good): The Maillard reaction and pet food processing: ... [Nutr Res Rev. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI

ORIGINAL ARTICLE: Effect of rendering on protein and fat quality of animal by-products - P[]rez-Calvo - 2010 - Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition - Wiley Online Library

Effect of raw material source, processing systems,... [Poult Sci. 1998] - PubMed - NCBI

As Carmen already mentioned, mycotoxins are a huge concern in grain-based foods, especially since the levels that can cause liver disease are not tested for in dry dog foods. However, the biggest culprit is by far corn: Mycotoxins in Pet Food:? A Review on Worldwide Prevalence and Preventative Strategies - Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry (ACS Publications)

Dogs keep dying: Too many owners remain unaware of toxic dog food | Cornell Chronicle

Mycotoxins and the pet food industry: t... [Int J Food Microbiol. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI

So there are plenty of legitimate reasons to avoid kibble, and some evidence that ground raw meat is the most highly digestible form of protein for dogs. However, I searched high and low for literature regarding Dr. Becker's claims about the effect of kibble on pancreatic function and came up dry. That doesn't mean it's not out there- I just can't find it. I only found a few studies where dogs that already had issues with their kidneys/pancreas needed a special diet or were sickened by a particular diet. Much of what Dr. Becker says is speculation, inferring that the effects of a large amount of protein from grains in very sick animals also apply to healthy animals. We know that this is not true of humans- someone who is allergic to shellfish shouldn't be used as an example of what happens when humans in general eat shellfish.

There is some evidence that starches with a high glycemic index have a similar effect on insulin and lipase levels in dogs as they do in humans: Postprandial lipolytic activities, lipids, and carboh... [J Nutr. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

Adaptation of canine pancreatic enzymes to diet composition

Potato is actually one of the worst offenders. I really wonder if including potato in grain-free foods is doing our dogs any favors in the long run.

I feel more comfortable feeding meat than I do processed carbohydrates; however, this does not mean that I accept the mysticism and misinformation that permeates much discourse about raw diets.
 
#49 ·
well not exactly . Enzymes are catalysts which allow the breakdown into metabolizable sized molecules. Very quickly because I do have a million things to do --- each "substance" comes with its own enzymes to break down , catabolize. Protein would be protease . When the pH is changed , as upon death , a sequence is triggered which breaks down protein, another selected for fats, carbohydrates another for cellulose and so on and so on. Minerals are required , acting like spark plugs to generate chemical reactions. High temperatures "cook" or inhibit enzyme action , which is why we heat our food , to prevent spoilage. A piece of raw meat left in the sun will have a quickened destruction , whereas a cooked piece of meat will take longer to break down. Same with cold which inhibits chemical breakdown .
Without enzyme activity molecules will not break down into smaller molecules to be absorbed and metabolized.

there are co-enzymes such as co-enzyme Q 10 , enzymes which come to "life" and make our bread leavened and tasty beer , make cheese , and fermented dairy , and even remove stains and odors in cleaning products.

Life without enzymes would be d e a d .
 
#50 ·
pulled fresh from my bookshelves --- The Microbe Factor & Enzymes that Switch on Your Innate Immunity , also same author (although this book is on loan to a friend ) the Enzyme Factor -- by Dr Hriomi Shinya [ame]http://www.amazon.ca/The-Enzyme-Factor-Hiromi-Shinya/dp/0982290039[/ame]

Now a professor of surgery at Albert Einstein College of Medicine and head of the Endoscopic Center of Beth Israel Hospital in New York, he runs private clinics ............

promoting enhanced digestion as a base for optimal health --- Enzymes What the Experts Know Enzymes: What the Experts Know: Tom Bohager: 9781424307951: Amazon.com: Books

and the oft mentioned Brenda Watson book - Gut Solutions

and all the titles of Bernerd Jensen , Empty Harvest etc .

then there are Pottenger's studies .....

Cannot over emphasize the need for minerals as co-factors
 
#52 ·
High temps denature proteins including enzymes. Cooking not only inactivates enzymes, it also destroys the micro organisms present which feed on & putrefy meats. Note that a quick 'surface' cooking is adequate for roasts & steaks but only a more thorough cooking is truly safe for stored ground meats which are essentially almost all surface area with any bacteria present ground into the meat & happily incubating (feeding). For this reason I don't feed raw ground to my dogs & wouldn't unless I'd freshly ground it myself. I don't see any advantages to that.
 
#55 ·
I doubt there is evidence that kibble on its own can cause EPI, research suggests it is genetic but that environmental factors such as emotional and/or physical stress may play a part in its development and severity. I have read all the latest research on EPI. Show me where it says for certain that emotional/physical stress or feeding a certain food causes EPI. We do know that the most common form of EPI in dogs under five years is Pancreatic Acinar Atrophy (PAA). And that older dogs with chronic pancreatitis are at higher risk for EPI. So I guess we could argue that raw food puts dogs at higher risk for EPI since they are so high in fat.

Alleles of the major histocompatibility compl... [Immunogenetics. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI


As Momto2GSDs advises, the best food for our pets is that eaten by their wild cousins such as wolves, a natural diet provides the ideal fuel, cleans their teeth and keeps the animals in peak health, a raw natural diet acts as food and medicine combined. Really? That's just more internet myth that gets copied out of magazines and websites. What about all the nasty bacteria dogs are subjected to day after day that are fed raw, that couldn't possibly cause any issues right?

http://deschutesveterinaryclinic.evetsites.net/sites/site-3089/documents/raw%20foods.pdf


My point is people shouldn't make these outrageous statements unless they have some prove. Owners that have dogs with EPI have enough to deal with, they don't need the "raw worshipers" to insinuate that what they are feeding may have caused their dogs illness.

I would imagine kibble may contribute to SIBO (now called SID) because if the EPI dog does not have enough enzymes (whether own or replacement) to digest the kibble then it may sit in stomach and ferment causing bacteria etc.
 
#57 ·
We need to be very careful when making claims about serious chronic illnesses and their treatments.

I don't know enough about enzyme therapy to have a strong opinion on it. I do think it is important for readers to understand that using enzymes to treat cancer, immune disorders, and diabetes is not part of mainstream medicine. The "Enzyme Factor" book that Carmen linked claims enzymes can cure cancer. I am skeptical of any author, MD or not, who makes claims like that on the front of their book. Dr. Shinya is also a proponent of using Kangen alkaline water to treat cancer. They sell Kangen water to cancer patients in my town out of a vegan cafe. These poor people are desperate and sick so they shell out gobs of money for what is essentially snake oil. I don't think I need to explain why the claims of alkaline water are junk science. If you could substantially change the ph of your blood through diet, you would die. Alkaline Diet Plan Review: Does It Work?

Enzymes are used in pancreatic conditions because the role of the pancreas is directly related to enzymes. Definitely not going to argue that enzymes are essential to life! I don't want to pick a fight with people about what they feed and why. There are people on this board with many more years of experience in tinkering with canine diets than most vets. I am more concerned about scientific literacy. Saying "I feed X because I have seen and believe Y about my dogs" is different from recommending spurious sources.
 
#58 ·
IF I was forced to choose I'd rather have a genetically sound dog on Old Roy than a genetically compromised dog on any particular diet regardless of how 'superior' it is. Although I currently feed RAW, my dogs in the past thrived on kibble, including middle of the road fare such as Purina ONE, Pro-Pak or Nutrisource.

Too many breeders, including some that are highly regarded, do not select for health & longevity. IMO, no diet, regardless of how good it is, can make up for marginal breeding.
 
#60 ·
Doc, that occured to me as well. Many of the better kibbles add digestive enzymes post-processing. I do know that mine have thrived on mid level kibble, top ranked kibble & RAW.

Anyone whose dog has a serious health condition needs to find a vet open to various possibilities, willing to re-think conventional truisms & well versed in current medical advances.
 
#63 · (Edited)
I doubt there is evidence that kibble on its own can cause EPI, research suggests it is genetic but that environmental factors such as emotional and/or physical stress may play a part in its development and severity. I have read all the latest research on EPI. Show me where it says for certain that emotional/physical stress or feeding a certain food causes EPI. We do know that the most common form of EPI in dogs under five years is Pancreatic Acinar Atrophy (PAA). And that older dogs with chronic pancreatitis are at higher risk for EPI. So I guess we could argue that raw food puts dogs at higher risk for EPI since they are so high in fat. I tend to rely on the wonderful and informed up to date information contained on the epi4dogs website which has been recommended as an online resource website by the AVMA. Heidigsd, nothing is CERTAIN other than replacement enzymes help a dog with EPI digest their food, I did say above that stresses MAY contribute to the development of EPI and that it may play a role in severity - stress on its own can not cause EPI Here is the link containing this information, http://www.epi4dogs.com/downloads.htm scroll down to the EPI brochure and read under the heading Where does EPI come from

Alleles of the major histocompatibility compl... [Immunogenetics. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI


As Momto2GSDs advises, the best food for our pets is that eaten by their wild cousins such as wolves, a natural diet provides the ideal fuel, cleans their teeth and keeps the animals in peak health, a raw natural diet acts as food and medicine combined. Really? That's just more internet myth that gets copied out of magazines and websites. What about all the nasty bacteria dogs are subjected to day after day that are fed raw, that couldn't possibly cause any issues right?
I can only speak from experience, I have been feeding raw to my dogs forever, I used to mix it with kibble, however have recently learned about how a canine digests different foods (ie raw meat and dry kibble) and now feed the 2 food groups separately, I feed grain free dry kibble in the morning then about 11 to 12 hours later I feed only raw meat and bones. Since I have been separating the 2, my 2 current dogs have been receiving more raw and bones than they would normally have when mixed and I have noticed their coat is amazing, they are calmer and their weight is easier to control - this is my experience and is not based on any myth or copying and pasting from any website. I have not had any problems with bacteria, in fact I would argue, that an EPI dog on only dry kibble where they are not getting enough enzymes, the dry kibble may sit in the tummy for a period of time turning in bacteria and contributing to the SIBO?? This is just my opinion.
http://deschutesveterinaryclinic.evetsites.net/sites/site-3089/documents/raw%20foods.pdf


My point is people shouldn't make these outrageous statements unless they have some prove. Owners that have dogs with EPI have enough to deal with, they don't need the "raw worshipers" to insinuate that what they are feeding may have caused their dogs illness. I think you are wrong here and I have not made any outrageous statements, I am only speaking from experience and from discussions with someone far more experienced and educated in this topic than me http://rawmeatybones.com/Dr-Lonsdale-biography.pdf. By using the term 'raw worshipers' confirms your bias towards only feeding dry kibble and that you are not open to discussion on this topic without lashing out at people who choose to feed raw. You should avoid the name callings as I too am trying to cope with keeping my EPI dog alive and I have chosen to feed raw - I don't need you to make me feel as if I am doing something wrong either, raw food is not necessarily high in fat as you state above - try accepting that people choose what is best for them and their dogs and that your way may not be the right way
 
#65 ·
I assume there are different "degrees" of EPI. Perhaps the lower level cases can eat a primary prey raw model diet and get enough enzymes; the more severe the case may need to include enzymes in the diet? I would posit the EPI is hereditary and manifest in a dog for many reasons such a compromised immune system due to nutrition, stress, disease, etc.
 
#66 ·
yes I think there are degrees, for example if an EPI dog pancreas is still present and working then will produce enzymes to digest food, however it may not be enough - hence replacement enzymes are needed.

Which might explain why some EPI dogs recover quicker than others, perhaps the ones that are not putting on weight or only putting on a little weight with replacement enzymes, their pancreas may be non existent, so they will require a much higher dosage of replacement enzymes in order to digest their food.

Also, I wonder if these dogs would be better off with raw muscle and organ meats that contain quality enzymes as well as their replacement one?
 
#68 ·
response to this quote

" I do think it is important for readers to understand that using enzymes to treat cancer, immune disorders, and diabetes is not part of mainstream medicine"

---- there are digestive enzymes and then there are metabolic enzymes . 70 % possibly more of immunity begins in the digestive system. Proteolytic , or metabolic enzymes enter the bloodstream and break down proteins , which are abnormal in the bloodstream . This includes the fibrin coating of viruses, bacteria , protein from a disturbed digestive system such as leaky gut where protein enters the bloodsteam rather than being digested and metabolized . This last mentioned item , equals inflammation, which is what cancer is considered, a universal inflammation. Cancer cells have a protective fibrin coating.

From the American Cancer Society Enzyme Therapy



Metabolic enzymes if added to a diet would be bromelain and papain.

Undigested proteins in the blood excite a histamine response , which becomes an allergy , inflammation.
and so on .
 
#69 ·
Undigested proteins in the blood excite a histamine response , which becomes an allergy , inflammation.
and so on .
Gee I thought this was about coconut oil! It's all very interesting info,but it makes my head spin! :crazy:

I have been using coconut oil for Rocky recently and he has been getting less and less itchy. The first year was very bad! He was getting at least one shot around Sept ever year since 2008 but I'm trying to stop doing that.

Anyway I found the above quote very interesting. Anyway to point me in a specific direction in regards to the above?
 
#70 ·
I was out of town for a few days and just now getting back to this thread. First off I sincerely appreciate all the conversation, and input from the members in this thread! I had no idea I would come back to see page after page of info.

Now, back on topic.. I'm not sure why the Vet/ Vet tech feels so strongly against coconut oil, but at this point I'm not going to call them out on their input as being wrong or uninformed. I rather avoid the conflict and feel my conversation with her wont change her mind. I will be searching for a holistic vet in my area, and Yes I could use some input on finding a good one in the Osseo, Brooklyn Park area of Minnesota.


Abby's itching has decreased a bit since starting the coconut oil, but she is still uncomfortable. I'm only 3 weeks into using the coconut oil and I've heard that it can sometime take 6 to 8 weeks to get the full benefit. I think its worth the little bit of effort and waiting of a few more weeks, to see the full benefit the coconut oil has for our situation.

Concerning diet: It sorta irritates me that the expensive Core food I purchased is labeled "Grain free", which in truth it is, however it does have "Potatoes, Dried ground potatoes, Sweet potatoes" as some of the top ingredients. Core seems to be a high quality kibble but it is not Raw, and I think that is the route I need to go with Abby.

I know there is a ton of reading on the internet concerning Raw diets, but if someone could assist me with Abby and helping me select the right ingredients.. we would be very grateful for the input. I have enough Kibble for another 4 days, so I want to get her switched over to Raw sooner rather then later. Yes I know there are some folks that will say a good kibble is sufficient, but I feel this decision to go Raw for Abby is, right choice for our situation.
 
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