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Severe Itchiness that BAFFLES vet

26K views 154 replies 33 participants last post by  GatorBytes 
#1 ·
My GSD Panzer has been battling some form of allergies or skin disorder since a young pup. I've spent thousands of dollars on tests and medication and nothing seems to be working.

His skin is almost always red and irritated, and often takes on a black scaly texture in certain areas. He rubs his face constantly on the furniture to the point where the poor thing bleeds! He's itched off his belly and underarm and neck hair.

This usually goes away for a little while with a string of prednisone and antibiotics but fairly shortly after he's taken off it he gets another flare up.

I submitted his blood for allergy testing from Spectra Labs and they determined he's allergic to almost everything. Potatoes, Peas, Pork, fleas, house flies, nuts, certain trees, grass, and much more. His ears are constantly bothering him and get some sort of yeasty build up. I try to control it with the use of KetFlush which was provided by the vet.

To attempt to alleviate his symptoms he has been taking regular homeopathic allergen injection shots but they don't seem very effective, even now as he approaches the highest dosage concentration.

We also changed his dog food to one that doesn't contain any known allergens, and give him ONLY fresh spring water to drink. I'm at a complete loss here. He's been previously treated for allergy flare ups with prednisone and also the yeast with special shampoos and pills.

They checked him for mites with a sample under a microscope, and was told they didn't find anything. They also examined him for fleas and said he was clear.

I just want him to be healthy and happy. He's almost 2 years old and I've had to stop his training due to his health issues and I also have to walk him on pavement and avoid dog parks for fear the allergens will cause a flare up.

Please help. I've run out of idea's to try, and I'm still no closer to understanding what's wrong with my dog. Any insights or ideas?
 
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#32 ·
We all, prior kibble feeders who made the switch, had the same concerns. A dog can choke on a piece of kibble like we can on a potato chip. So that answers that question.

Will it cut him up inside. Not sure really, I know my dog when his GI tract was out of whack, may not have digested the bones fully...however, the stomach acids soften the bone make it more rubbery (for lack of better description).

Chicken bones are the easiest to chew up and digest.

Trust in nature. Your dog will love you for it:)

For first time feeding, if you have a cleaver or chicken shears, break the thigh away from the drum, or twist and pull apart and cut it.

You can buy pre-made RAW with bone ground in, but that defeats the purpose of raw on teeth, muscles, and the act of chewing/grinding stimulates digestion. But to start, I mean the focus is on getting your dog well...so in the interim until you research more and build some confidence you can go that route...throw in a couple wings here and there.

Did you look at the pics on your other thread?
 
#34 ·
You have to click on the links that are underlined - they are threads on this forum...there was 4 links, 2 were about food and the other 2 were Nyx threads for you to read...

You are welcome:)
 
#35 ·
#37 ·
Alright guys I took the plunge today with Panzer! We're using animal essentials for the probiotic, I've been adding 2 tsp of CO to his meal (feeding him 2-3 pds once a day), And spritzing with ACV and rubbing on CO to his skin.

I'm feeding him Chicken Quarters and Chicken Livers to start.....I can't seem to buy anything else unless its in bulk (40pd minimum). What else should I include?
 
#39 ·
Hi, was hoping someone would chime in...I tried, but having problems with my computer and my reply crapped out!

How is your dog doing today. It's hard to say if going into a detox mode at this early of a stage with just the addition of CO, especially at such a conservative dose and without knowing when you started. Your thread was started before x-mas, but when you started CO and ACV, is not known.

Is he on any other meds (vet scripted?). Had he been bathed again recently with the ketachlor?

Just wanted to touch base with you. I would hate to be entering an unknown realm only to feel abandoned when you need advice the most.

One thing I would suggest is to split the food into two meals if you can. May be a heavy load for one meal a day feed at this time and with the RAW switch and existing health problems.

Good for you though for taking the next step! Hang in. He will get better.
 
#40 · (Edited)
Sorry all for the delay in the update. He's doing a bit better but seems still kinda bed bound, and not completely himself yet but better than he was doing. I think he's tired of being spritzed with ACV and getting CO rubber over him but he's still letting me do it (however he does try and hide everytime he sees the spray bottle). His skin is starting to appear a little better and more pink. He is NOT on any prescription medications other than his monthly allergy injections. Since he has been feeling poorly I have NOT bathed him in Ketachlor again. We started spraying him with the ACV and rubbing CO on him around 1/8/14 I believe. We took the plunge on the food and started giving probiotics and CO in food as of 1/13/14, However, we switched him from his food on 1/10/14. (We gave him Chicken Breasts for a few days before we gave him raw bones)

My biggest concern is that I'm feeding him the correct foods. I'm giving him Chicken Quarters and Chicken Livers as well as some Chicken Gizzards.

Are Chicken Quarters considered both RMB and MM?

Are Gizzzards just OM? (One of my dogs dislikes Liver but will eat Gizzards)

Panzer, the dog with the skin issue I expect should be at around 100 pounds when healthy. I'm feeding him 2 pounds per day. Tonight his meal was as follows:

1 lb 15 oz Chicken Quarters

1.8 oz Chicken Liver & Chicken Gizzards

(2) 1/4 tspn of probiotics

(2) tspns CO


Is this enough food for him? And did I cover all the meat types correctly?
(RMB, MM, OM)?

Thanks all
 
#41 ·
You need to get the dog checked by a vet derm. There are so many regular vets that will try multiple paths, with no resolution.

We saw this with a local dog. Dog was on multiple meds, etc. plus issues with never a solid poop. Dog came to husband for training. Before started training, he recommended that owner take dog to a certified Vet Derm, put dog on single source protein, no wheat, corn, etc..

Lo and behold, Derm vet was able to identify what was wrong, dog got the correct meds, issue cleared up. With the food allergies, the food change also made a huge difference.

Once dog was stable and not miserable due to the skin and food issues, husband did the training.
 
#43 ·
Sorry. I hadn't seen your post, I have a (or a couple) redirect virus on my computer, logging on has been difficult, and even if I can, I post or click on link or new page of forum just cycles until I give up or get oops page (cannot find link).

To answer your question. Amounts seem fine for now. Although not sure if gizzards are an OM. Gizzards are part of the stomach, and with beef tripe is considered a MM.

I'd like to suggest you get some calves (specifically, not cow) liver. Calves liver is highest in zinc of all the livers (cow, chicken, turkey, pork). Zinc is important for skin repair and immune function.

Also during this time of healing, it is best to feed smaller portions more times per day - if you can split the food to a.m/p.m. meals and split the CO ratio along with it.

You said he's doing a bit better, but still a bit bed bound...If you feel your dog isn't bouncing back after splitting daily ration, then lay off the CO for couple days and add in again for 4-5 days, day of rest, on again for few days and so forth. Gauge it by how he's doing.

Great news that his skin is already showing improvement though, isn't it?!!!

On side note: you may consider adding a touch of fresh crushed garlic (small clove) every few days to start. Garlic is excellent for treating yeast. Can be used in carrier oil to treat ear infections.

You can also use the CO to swab/clean the ears. Only thing that killed yeast problem in my guys ears.

Keep up the good work. Keep asking we're here for you and post some pics!:)
 
#44 ·
Hey guys,

So as an update Panzer seems to have taken a turn for the worst again. We've continued his raw Diet, and I've noticed he started losing a little weight so I upped his feeding to 3% of his goal weight.

As of the last few days he's gotten VERY VERY itchy once more and began chewing more areas of his furr! I cant get into a holistic vet for at least 6 months and Im begin to worry for his health (more so than I have been).

On a side note, does CO need to be unrefined to work as I want it too? I ran out of unrefined and they were out of stock at the supermarket so I purchased refined to supplement until they restock. Is this okay?

Is this new flare up a good sign or bad? I've been told when he gets close to getting over it he may get much itchier before it goes completely away. Is this true?

Any insight would be helpful!
 
#46 ·
Hey guys,

So as an update Panzer seems to have taken a turn for the worst again. We've continued his raw Diet, and I've noticed he started losing a little weight so I upped his feeding to 3% of his goal weight.

As of the last few days he's gotten VERY VERY itchy once more and began chewing more areas of his furr! I cant get into a holistic vet for at least 6 months and Im begin to worry for his health (more so than I have been).

On a side note, does CO need to be unrefined to work as I want it too? I ran out of unrefined and they were out of stock at the supermarket so I purchased refined to supplement until they restock. Is this okay?

Is this new flare up a good sign or bad? I've been told when he gets close to getting over it he may get much itchier before it goes completely away. Is this true?

Any insight would be helpful!
Hi gibby! you're not alone. don't panic.

When you say "turn for the worst" do you mean just the itching? b/c that comment sounded scary.

Did this start with change to "refined CO". I ask b/c refined usually means chemically treated, and/or heat treated, which hydrogenates the oil. Think hydrogenated margarine. Hexane is a chemical used to refine oils and could be a culprit.

Do you have a Costco membership? You can get Carrington's (brand), big one for around $17 US there. It is unrefined, hexane free.

Did you switch to calves liver for zinc?
Maybe backtrack to any changes that may have made just prior. If you feel he is detoxing too fast, cut out the CO for few days. Did you increase it btw? Should be able to get up to 2-3 tblsps. Asking b/c 2 tsps. isn't a lot.

What about bathing. Have you used the ketachlor again? Have you sourced a neem oil shampoo?

What is the weather been where you are? My dog was scratching so bad, the temps came up a bit and he more at ease?

I know you added a probiotic - what about digestive enzyme?

Still here for you.
 
#47 ·
4 things you may want to consider::)

The Honest Kitchen Dehydrated Grain Free Embark:
Embark - Grain Free, High Protein Dog Food | The Honest Kitchen

Krill Oil - some people find krill more helpful than salmon oil for a particular dog:“Krill oil has a unique biomolecular profile that distinguishes it from other fish oils. While EPA and DHA in fish oils comes in the form of triglycerides, the EPA and DHA is already incorporated into phospholipids, which facilitates the passage of the fatty acids through the intestinal wall. This increases the bioavailability of the EPA and DHA and improves absorption and assimilation.” "Krill Oil contains Astaxanthin which is a powerful antioxidant and is also an anti-inflammatory. “Astaxanthin is a carotenoid-type of antioxidant that is even more powerfu than beta-carotene, alpha-tocopherol, lycopene and lutien.” Krill Oil capsules (180 per bottle): 1 bottle - Mercola.com

Digestive Enzymes/ProBiotics combination (to support and heal the gut): The Wholistic Pet

SeaVive: Myself and a few friends have seen amazing results using this product for fungus and allergies for our dogs! My husband and I also take it everyday to keep our immune system up during the winter months!
SeaVive Information:
IMMUNE SYSTEM MISSION: Prevent disease and infection
Mucous membranes that line body cavities open to the environment, such as those found in the nose and gut, house antibodies called immunoglobulins that ensnare pathogens and potential antigens encountered in daily life. Thus, mucous membranes function as the first step in the mission of the immune system to prevent disease and infection.
Toxic invaders that sneak by the mucosal barrier are met by white blood cells called macrophages, which by a process called phagocytosis literally digest and destroy invaders in the blood. Thus, macrophages become the body's inside line of defense responsible for seeking and indiscriminately destroying viruses, parasites, fungi, and bacteria.
Two new supplements aid and assist these defenses against disease and infection. They are Colostrum, which supplies critical immunoglobulins to block invaders at the level of the mucosal barrier, and Beta glucan, which stimulates the action of the macrophages to phagocytize invaders in the blood stream. A third supplement Seacure® aids the immune system indirectly by correcting pathogenic bowel permeability to prevent hazards from passing through the gut membrane to infect internal organs. Finally, Vitamin C is well recognized for its immune-supportive properties. All four of these components are combined to produce the one-of-a-kind immune-booster ... SeaVive®. About SeaVive

Quote: SeaVire® is a 100% natural, pre-digested fish protein concentrate combined with Colostrum 80/40 which is critical for good immune function. This combination is the only product on the market like it in the world. It is now available in the nutraceutical industry today. SeaVive® naturally contains a total of 18 amino acids including the 11 essential amino acids. Essential amino acids are amino acids that cannot be synthesized by the dog/cat's body and must be supplied to the body in their daily diet. But when a system is compromised due to disease or a debilitating condition SeaVive is the ideal supplement because of the benefits of a quickly absorbed and fully assimilated protein source- one of which is fast repair and recovery from illness, surgery, and wound healing.

Because SeaVive® is already pre-digested it is 100% usable by the body, and it does not require effort on the part of the dog's digestive system to process the protein. This makes it readily available for nourishment, boosting immune function and accelerated healing. This product is perfect for fading puppy syndrome, the systemic yeast removal detoxification process, dog's whose systems are depleted from IBD, IBS, Coccidia and Giardia. It is a terrific supplement for dog's with allergies due to its immune boosting properties and an answer to nourishment for the stages of early renal failure because it's a protein the body does not have to process, so it is usable and not hard on the compromised kidneys.

During the manufacturing process of SeaVive they employ a proprietary technology that permits them to, naturally, breakdown the fresh raw material, Pacific Whiting (a member of the Cod family) making SeaVive
almost 100% absorbable and assimilated by the body.

Due to this technological process, the body does not have to further digest SeaVive® which makes it very easy on the body, permitting the naturally occurring minerals, nutrients, amino acids and peptides of the fish to be utilized immediately assisting the body with the natural healing process.
Some Examples of Use:
Detoxification During Yeast Removal
Boosting Immune Function
Allergies
IBD and IBS
Digestive Issues
Malabsorption Issues
Giardia
Coccidia
Parasites
Malnutrition
Rescue & Repair
Lactating Bitches
Fading Puppy Syndrome
Wound Healing - Topically
Repair After Surgery
Wound Healing - Internally
HOD (when off feed)
Nourishment Post Surgery
Renal Failure

About SeaVive
Or here: SeaVive 90 Capsules by Proper Nutrition

Always add new foods or supplements slowly.

Hope your baby finds some relief soon!

Moms:)
 
#49 ·
This may seem counter-intuitive, but I might consider not worrying TOO much about getting all the nutrition at this point, and just worry about getting him eating and comfortable with ONE source of protein (as in chicken if he isn't reacting with that), including chicken livers. Yes, you will definitely need to balance his diet and add organ meat and so on, but at this point, a few weeks with just raw meat (bone-in) isn't likely to hurt him in the long run. After a month if you are seeing improvement in his skin, then add another protein source. Then, another month and you can add a supplement, and so on, always one at a time a few weeks apart so you can determine if anything is affecting him. Keeping a careful food log as well as any other details of things that change in his environment can help too, though it takes a lot of time.

I'm NOT a pro, just somebody who went through a lot of allergy issues with one of my dogs, and finally did it this way, and got it under control for the most part. I didn't have any forums like this, or a holistic vet, and both are great resources for you. Most of the folks here who have offered you advice would probably also be open to PMs if you're feeling like you really need a answer, I know I might miss a post, but I will usually see the PM right away.
 
#52 ·
Oh and I can't locate any calves liver. I only have three grocery stores and Walmart in my area. We have a markey basket which have chicken backs, Shaws occasionally has chicken livers, and Hannaford doesn't carry anything but Chicken Quarters. I typically purchase my Chicken Quarters, Gizzards, and Liver from Walmart.

I did purchase Beef Liver however (figured it was close to Calve liver) and I did mix that in on several meals rather than chicken Liver. Is that okay? Or do you know of a place to get actual Calve Liver?

Thanks!
 
#54 ·
Oh and I can't locate any calves liver. I only have three grocery stores and Walmart in my area. We have a markey basket which have chicken backs, Shaws occasionally has chicken livers, and Hannaford doesn't carry anything but Chicken Quarters. I typically purchase my Chicken Quarters, Gizzards, and Liver from Walmart.

I did purchase Beef Liver however (figured it was close to Calve liver) and I did mix that in on several meals rather than chicken Liver. Is that okay? Or do you know of a place to get actual Calve Liver?

Thanks!
Does anyone have any suggestions regarding my above questions?

Oh and I finally got around to submitting the photos of Panzer's condition. I don't know how to link to it but its in my profiles albums......
 
#56 ·
Don't take this the wrong way but it's time for your dog to see a specialist. Do you have any dermatologists or teaching hospitals where you live?

He looks like he's suffering, I can't even imagine :( You have gotten a lot of bad advise so far IMHO and I will leave it at that.
 
#63 ·
Don't take this the wrong way but it's time for your dog to see a specialist. Do you have any dermatologists or teaching hospitals where you live?

He looks like he's suffering, I can't even imagine :( You have gotten a lot of bad advise so far IMHO and I will leave it at that.
completely this
raw isn't the answer to all problems
if dog's allergic to chicken, then what??
a specialist, esp. a holistic one
that dog has no quality of life at this point
if you talk to 100 people they'll give u
100 diff advice
please get to a holistic vet
i hurt looking at that dog :(:(:(
 
#58 ·
Gibby, it's only been 3 weeks since you started RAW. I believe Nyx mentioned in his threads 3 months from time he sought advice here to his Vet supporting his decisions once the skin ailment was reversed - Something even she doubted could be done.

He didn't have pics., but yours is what I imagine his dog looked like to by the description

Yes the pics. look very discouraging and heartbreaking. But it was conventional medicine that drove illness that deep into the body that this happened. It takes time to heal. Healing has to happen from the inside, cells need to die off and replaced by new.

You've done the allergy tests, know the allergic triggers, some you can avoid. I don't know of any specialist that can cure your dog - maybe manage - with of course the use of steroids, abx. and maybe the big guns - ATOPICA (cyclosporine), a chemo type drug that is used as last resort in place of or along side pred, just like that dog Thunder in the dogs naturally link).

Even if you cannot get an appointment with a local holistic vet, maybe travel outside area an hr. or two.

Don't get discouraged.
 
#59 ·
Gibby I PM-ed you.

I will re check your thread for the images, but, on my once over I missed them. I am so sorry I did not want to take images of my Dante. I desperately wished I did for every puppy and their owners suffering from this condition.

I linked you in the Pm to my Original help thread but I will add it here as well http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/191277-help-us-please-skin-yeast.html

And our Testimonial thread
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/b-r-f-raw-feeding/221754-raw-barf-update-testimonial.html


Let me re-hash my original posts for you so you can get the gist of the situation and see how it compare with yours now.

Dante, PB GSD intact male would get "hot spots" at three months. Red spots like the size of a quarter on his tummy and between his legs. Then they would turn black ( like elephant skin). He would lick between his toes and pads of his feet, making them red and raw, until they bled.

We went to the vet and were told it was just "hormones" as he was maturing and I needed to get him cut to alleviate the issues.

Then He started the ear infections. And I mean TERRIBLE yeasty gross and stinky ear infections. Which returned us to the vet for antibiotics and ear washes.

Meanwhile his "hormonal hot-spots" turned into red, raw, flakey skin growing from his testies to his front arm-pits. In which a return to the vet told us he had "environmental allergies" and gave us more anti-biotic, cortizone creams and special bath soaps.

These 'treatments' usually last three weeks and he would get 'cured' and revert back to his symptoms within four weeks. WORSE.

We changed foods, we got steroid shots, we used EVERY anti-biotic given to us, we were on 3 pills of benedryl every 4 hours they scratch tested his black, red and flaky skin and found NOTHING. We had blood tests and NOTHING WORKED. NOTHING.

I spent easily 3 thousand dollars on the prescriptions and vet visits.
I tried home-remedies, like blue violet, Apple vinegar cider, Boric acid and tea tree oils.

We went to a secondary vet because I just could not believe that the first one could not "pin down" an issue.

Dante ended up losing ALL of his fur on his stomach; from testies to pits, and up around his 'mane' on his shoulders. His skin was black like elephant skin and seeping yellow sap like liquid that turned to crust. I put cotton shirts on him to keep him from ithcing and to try to keep his skin dry.

I had enough with the vet's and looked on-line for help.

I ended up here. I asked for help. And I got it.

We started the RAW/ B.A.R.F diet with JUST CHICKEN in late December 2012 after I researched and asked tons of questions on-line here to get the gist and to stock up on the supplies that were needed.

By the end of January Dante was healing. His skin was not inflamed any longer and the redness was going away( the red was hot to the touch as well) and the heat was gone!
It took a bit longer for the thick elephant skin to turn pink again (which the Vet's told me would NEVER go away ) and of course his hair to re-grow.

But Dante is in utter remission, has NO Skin trouble or ear infections at all now. NONE. My vet is in utter astonishment and so happy Dante is feeling better.

At first they advised me to be very careful about feeding raw. They sorta scared me. But once she saw Dante's turn around she is absolutely positive about everything. She says she would not have believed me if she had not seen it from day one and now to full remission.

We only feed Kibble when some one else is taking care of them, or we have run out of stock. And I feed EVO. Other wise they get absolutely NO kibble. No biscuit treats. No raw hides. ( and if he is one the EVO too long, he gets hot-spots)

I buy elk horns for chewies and make gelatine treats from coconut milk or chicken broth for training and just because.

I really do kick myself in the butt every day that I did not take images of him, but he was so dejected and miserable and looked so bad that I just could not do it to him.

If there is any thing else I can do to help you and your baby. ANYTHING please don't hesitate to ask.
 
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