anyone read the puppies locked in fixed postions for months HD study, often quoted by

[x11]

breeders. seems a bit too convenient that i see references to an article where HD dogs were bred and pups locked for months in some bizarre postion which they had their movement highly retricted to show that HD is more about environment not breeeding. some breeders cling to this article and bring it up whenever there is any discussion on HD pups - not interpretting their motives but seems snakey to me, like HD is the puppy buyers fault.

the article is as i understand legitimate, anyone got a link. what sort of saddists would even do this experiment - i will persoanlly write a letter of complaint to the university's ethics in experiments committee and hope it gets on national television - are there some experiments that can not be justified, in the human case the answer is yes if you are aware of the infamous nazi data.

[GSD2]

This doesn't make a lot of sense, as restricting movement of the hip would certainly be detrimental to the hip, in itself. Are you sure the study is legit? Perhaps if you can find that article more information would be provided. I can't imagine anyone thinking that restricting movement in a limb (or body) would result in anything but disabitly, IMHO

[x11]

i will try my google skills at finding it, but apparently peer reviewed and yes does seem odd but it is taken as the ultimate repreive by breeders who want to promote the postition that the puppy buyer has the responsibility to keep the pup HD free and take some emphasis off the breeder because now it is scientifically proven that HD is environmental more or less, after all every GSD has the genetics for HD.

i am sure the actual context of the paper has been "expanded" on by breeders that want to promote this view. i will not link to the conversation as don't want to be seen as breeder bashing.

someone here must have read the article.

[Renoto]

I didnt read the article in question, but I've been scouring the web for info on HD cause my pup has been limping (though I'm hoping it's Pano, she has more of those symptoms) and a lot of the things I've read and watched have also said that HD is 50/50 for Envi. and Breeding.

This is all news to me though, since I grew up with the idea that HD is entirely hereditary. I was actually kind of surprised to read these things, and scared as well. Learning that it is not only genetic, but dietary and environmental means that there are so many more risks and it is much more complicated than simply looking at heredity.

But yeah if you can find this study (as...objectionable as it is. Really keeping a puppy in a stationary position like that?) maybe post the link? I'd be really curious to give it a look.

On the same note while reading about a study in Pano, I read an article that claimed there was a test done where GSD's who had Pano were bred to English Pointers who dont have it. To see if it could be passed on they housed Pointer and GSD pups together, and watched the mix litter along with them. Some GSD's got Pano, no Pointers did, and the mixes were a toss up, but apparently the study went on for a while, because it mentioned breeding the mixes back to pure GSD's.

[x11]

Ren, can i refer you to Hans Prager at Alpine k9, he knows the article well and has discussed it publicly at length, he seems an honest and nice guy with a lot of experience as a breeder, he generally answers emails promptly and is helpful and willing to share his knowledge.

[Zeeva]

Isn't the opposite also true; that puppies subjected to high jumps, stairs, over exercising at a young age can result in HD?

I agree that study is unethical...are you also against animal testing of any kind???

[x11]

Originally Posted by Zeeva

...are you also against animal testing of any kind???

i think that question has the potential to go too far off topic so i will say nothing more than it appears that physically restraining pups for months in unnatural postitons (if that is what happened) i would definately be absolutely against and would suggest the ethics committee that aproved the experiment be investigated to see if they can be criminally charged.

[Anubis_Star]

I have never read or heard of said article. If it was a peer reviewed paper, then I would be cautious without reading the actual source. In many peer reviewed papers, it's easy to quote what you like, or what you DON'T like, and leave out vital information. Some are great. Some are horrible opinions.

I have read a research article on the correlation between stairs and hip dysplasia. Pups that climb stairs as they grow, even a small flight such as might be found in a house or apartment complex, were much more likely to develop clinical signs of hip dysplasia over puppies raised on level ground, as might be seen with farm dogs etc.

I've said it a million times, but hip dysplasia is one of the most controversial subjects amongst orthopedic surgeons.

I personally believe the cause is largely genetic. If you have bad hips you have bad hips. HOWEVER, the clinical signs (pain, limping, etc) don't appear until osteoarthritis and bone formation from improper rubbing set in. Therefor this is largely genetic. A heavy dog, a puppy over-exercised, jumping too much, etc would cause excess wear and strain on the hips. A well conditioned dog with supplements and proper exercise might not. So theoretically a dog might have bad hips but no clinical signs because there is very little bone change. However if that dog had of done a lot more activity, wear on the hips throughout it's lifetime, then the hip joints would obviously be worse.

I could imagine it would be a rather stupid article. OF COURSE dogs held stationary aren't going to have clinical signs. Look at it this way. Dog A and Dog B both have moderate hip dysplasia. Hips look IDENTICAL. They're born with it. They both have shallow hip sockets and femoral heads that stick out too far. However they are both born with clean sockets and a good joint capsule offering lubrication, as EVERY puppy is.

Dog A is an active dog. Grows up playing, goes to the dog park, runs and hikes with his owner, does some agility. His hips are going to get a lot of use. Because of the improper set of his femur into the joint, the joint capsule providing lubrication between the bones is going to break down, causing bone on bone rubbing. This causes pain and osteoarthritis, and deformation of the bones, excess calcification. THIS is where the pain and clinical signs come from. Dog A now has clinical hip dysplasia, he's exhibiting symptoms.

If Dog B NEVER runs and NEVER jumps and NEVER plays, he'll never break down that joint capsule, he'll never develop that osteoarthritis, his bones will never rub together and cause pain, no excess calcification. He'll likely never develop the clinical signs associated with hip dysplasia, because those bones simply weren't used enough to. Doesn't mean the femoral head doesn't still stick out too far. Doesn't mean the hip socket isn't still too shallow. Doesn't mean he doesn't STILL have hip dysplasia, it's just not clinical.

[gagsd]

I read an article relating crating to unilateral HD. The thought was often a dog continuously lies on one side, limiting blood flow and hindering proper joint formation on that side.
It was quite a while ago and I did not bookmark it, so have no idea if it was a legitimate study or just theorizing.
There have been quite a few studies that showed puppies raised in yards with free exercise develop into adults with less ortho issues.

[Renoto]

Originally Posted by x11

Ren, can i refer you to Hans Prager at Alpine k9, he knows the article well and has discussed it publicly at length, he seems an honest and nice guy with a lot of experience as a breeder, he generally answers emails promptly and is helpful and willing to share his knowledge.

I read the summary of that article on the Albine k9 page I think. But that's good to know! If I ever want more info on that I'll toss him an email.

Originally Posted by gagsd

I read an article relating crating to unilateral HD. The thought was often a dog continuously lies on one side, limiting blood flow and hindering proper joint formation on that side.
It was quite a while ago and I did not bookmark it, so have no idea if it was a legitimate study or just theorizing.
There have been quite a few studies that showed puppies raised in yards with free exercise develop into adults with less ortho issues.

Wow I never read anything like that. We crate our pup for a few hours during the day when no one is home, but I never read anything negative (besides some behavioral things) coming from pups being crated. Our breeder advised until the pups were fully potty trained to keep them crated for the majority of the time, and only let them out under direct supervision. Thankfully we have someone home during the day who lets her out, but she is still crated for 3-4 hours in the morning, and 1-2 in the afternoon with breaks in between.

Originally Posted by Anubis_Star

I have read a research article on the correlation between stairs and hip dysplasia. Pups that climb stairs as they grow, even a small flight such as might be found in a house or apartment complex, were much more likely to develop clinical signs of hip dysplasia over puppies raised on level ground, as might be seen with farm dogs etc.

Would you be able to find that article? Our pup has a limp, and while it doesnt look like HD as the symptoms describe (it looks more like Pano), every exit in our house has a flight of stairs. To get from the front door to the driveway our pup has to go through 3 separate flights. From the back door to the driveway it's one large flight. I know that it's bad to mix correlation and cause, but I'd like to get a look at that article.