Elective gastroplexy , not in conjunction w/spay/nueter?

[qbchottu]

Have had *multiple* dogs since I was a child (nearly 3 decades of dogs) - family or I have never had issues of bloat. But I am not here to play the "I've had dogs longer so I know better" game. To insinuate that I do not "know" because I am not as old chronologically as some members is a moot point and an ominous scare tactic that is neither here nor there. A breeder friend has been breeding for decades - has had a handful of bloat cases. Should he tack each dog in his kennel? No. That's not feasiable or advisable. IF there is a REASON that WARRANTS concern, do it. If not, but you are still worried, do it if it makes you feel better. But to say do it definitely "just because"? No - that does not add up to me and don't think that is a reasonable justification for pushing preventative surgery.

[JeanKBBMMMAAN]

I am saying you never have a dog who bloated until you have a dog who bloated. And when it does, for your pet dog, you may look at the information a bit differently no matter where you are on the age spectrum.

However, I do think that when you make statements that encompass "all your life" that the number of years and number of dogs could make a difference in how a post is interpreted. So someone who is 50 and had 3 dogs for the dogs' whole lifetime has that experience and can relate that, someone who is 30 and has had 10 dogs for the dogs' whole lifetime can relate that. For anyone looking at anecdotal information, no matter how little that might really convey, those kind of numbers would help for them in starting to draw conclusions. That doesn't mean that the older person, or the person with the most dogs is right or wrong, but it helps to know that whole picture.

[qbchottu]

Sure I can agree with the second paragraph to a point. But even if I have a dog that bloats, does that mean I will tack every subsequent dog? No I will not. If there is a justifiable reason as to WHY the dog should be tacked, yes please do the elective surgery. But "I would do it. I don't know why you wouldn't - that would be my question for vets and recent studies/information - why wouldn't you do it?" is NOT a credible reason to simply do it. I am telling you why I wouldn't do it - if there is no reason or background as to WHY you need to do this, why should you elect to undergo a prophylactic surgery that has a significant cost and some recovery associated with it? It is not a 10$ surgery or something outpatient. It is a surgery with complications and risks - although minimal, I do not advocate doing things just because you can. Do it when there is a reason. If there is sufficient anxiety and worry on the owner's part, then do it as a peace of mind. But to send out a global blanket statement that you should because why shouldn't you - no, I do not agree with that reasoning. But again, it's the owner's choice to weigh the risks and do it - I am just telling you what I do and would do. If I get a dog and find out the sire bloated, I'll have the dog tacked. If there is no history or concern, no reason for me to tack.

[JeanKBBMMMAAN]

That's what I am saying to ask - why wouldn't you do it? I personally do not know of why you wouldn't so would ask that. This is like an old (OLD) SNL skit!* And that would be what I would be googling and researching - they why of not. Because it seems like a good idea.

And having seen the bloat/GDV you wish it was just the bloat. However, I have not tacked my dogs because they are not having any surgeries - which would be when I would have it done....

*There is no clip of it.

early 80's Saturday Night Live sketch. Guest host Ed Asner plays a Nuclear Power plant technician at his retirement party. He leaves his co-workers the following advice: "Remember, you can't put too much water in the reactor."

In the months that follow, half of the technicians interpret this as "it is impossible to over-fill the reactor" while the other half translate it as "Don't supply the reactor with too much water." This leads, of course, to a hilarious meltdown. It is an understatement to say American comedy programs have a tenacious grasp of nuclear protocols.

http://www.fluther.com/83419/does-an...movie-or-skit/

[qbchottu]

lol that's perfectly fine and your decision. But I am giving you my reason that I do not do elective surgery as a preventative when there is no significant risk factor that motivates me to have my dog undergo a prophylactic surgery.

If I am producing dogs that have a sire or direct relative that develops GDV, I would make it a point to tell current progeny or siblings as a warning that they should probably consider a preventative because the history is there. If the dog has the behavioral, temperament, anatomy etc. that predisposes it to bloat/torsion, by all means do it.

But when there is nothing certifiable to tip me off that there is a problem looming, I would not do the surgery. I also do not spay or neuter my dogs and xrays are either done under a mild sedative or with the dog awake so I would definitely not make a purposeful appointment just to get my dog tacked IF there are no prior risk factors that would push me towards elective surgery.

[JeanKBBMMMAAN]

The one thing that does happen though, we hope, is age. So that would be part of my question process. Does age negate those other things - so does a calm, female, slow eater, once she hits 7 and up have the same risk as a nervous, fast eating male of 6 and under?

I will likely never have a dog that will have known background or relatives, unless by chance. So my decisions are also going to reflect that. It would be great information for those who do - I think emoore is one who posted about it.

I would also look at lifestyle - how do I or am I able to manage my dog - are they alone for long periods after they eat, are they nearby at night, will I be around if they start to bloat (most likely) or not? What do vets see on that - dogs seem to start bloating at so many hours after they eat/what kind of trends are there if any? That would influence my decision.

But I would strongly consider having that kind of surgery done - meaning my mind is open to it and ready to hear the whys and why nots.

[wildo]

Hmm... this is a tough one. I agree with some fine points qbchottu has made about "if there is no history, then there may be less concern and reason for the surgery." However, I would want to research the hypothesis that GDV is a genetic disposition. I haven't researched it in a while, but I'm fairly confident that I've read that it isn't known whether the disease is genetically influenced. And as such, the family history may be irrelevant.

On the other hand, I would completely agree with her that if there WAS a genetic history of GDV, I'd be very much more likely to tack.

[qbchottu]

I would ask multiple questions before doing the tacking and there are many factors that would determine if I would or not. For example, I wouldn't do elective tacking on breeding females without more info - what happens when they are pregnant, how do the sutures and procedure influence the delivery, are there added complications? I also would not rely solely on genetics - the causation for bloat has not been categorically determined, but we can say that familial history predisposes certain family groups.

Same thing with anatomy and behavior - certain types of deep barrel chested anatomy has been cited with bloat frequency. Same with one meal dogs, dogs that are excessively stressed and excited, gulpers or big drinkers. Every year at large dog shows, a few dogs will bloat afterwards - obviously strenuous exercise, stress, travel, new environment, and excitement adds to it - genetics factors in as well, who knows to what extent in these cases. Knew of a nice young bitch that had some stressful table work done on her during training - she bloated that same night. Coincidence? Perhaps, but it makes you think. From what I've heard hearsay and in papers, adult male barrel chested large breed dogs have a predisposition. I straddle the line on elective surgery, if I have a reason to be suspicious of impending problems, I will lean towards having it done. I have no problem with the procedure and think it is an invaluable resource for us with large breeds predisposed to bloat/torsion, but I would not jump into it without weighing all my options and considering each dog on an individual basis.

[ponyfarm]

Whew..good food for thought, but these last few posts made me dizzy! Ok, so I have had a dog bloat (wolfhound) horrible. Had a friend's great dane bloat..horrible. Both died.

Being a horse owner, my biggest nightmare is colic. Pretty much like bloat in dogs, horrible for both owner and animal.

I am also aware that every procedure may have an unintended consequence. One must wiegh the pros and cons.

So, I am going to seriously consider it. And on a lighter note, being in the dental profession..we are all about prevention!!!

[Liesje]

To me Max seems to have a pretty developed chest so it's something I would definitely consider if he is going to be neutered anyway. I've never done it, but none of my dogs have yet had surgery for anything (well two came to me already altered and the others have not been altered) but if they had to have surgery I'd probably talk about it with my vet too.