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Old 12-20-2012, 12:55 PM   #31 (permalink)
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It is what it is, you can't change the spay at this point, though it might be helpful to consider the link Gatorbytes gave, and suggested therapies.

I too think she is yet a puppy/adolescent and the incident with the friend just happened while you had her ramped up, and it is really nothing to be overly concerned with. No, you don't want that to happen again, and yes, you do need to correct the behavior, but I think maturity and continued work will do what is needed.

But I also think it doesn't make sense to ignore or poo-poo what you are noting in you young female. I think that you probably are seeing some changes due to the changes within her body. And while those changes may not have affected a multitude of other dogs, it has yours. Not every pup dies from a Lepto vaccine, but some do. Not every dog has a vaccine reaction, but some do.

Since yours seems to be sensitive to the change in her internal systems, I would seriously consider the link, etc. And give it a try. What do you have to lose? And there may be some gain.

Good luck.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:59 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Well put Selzer.

Every dog is different. There is no one size fits all
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Old 12-20-2012, 02:07 PM   #33 (permalink)
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First off, thank you guys for the many responses and thought you've put in.

It may be early, and I don't want to jinx it, but I have two pieces of good news to share.

We were at the vets yesterday for her vaccines for DHPP and Rabies, and the vet gave her a clear bill of health. Vet also said she was well-behaved but a drivey puppy, which is great news. I was mainly worried that her spay was affecting her negatively.

The second piece of good news is that Puppy responded immediately to her "puppyhood" regime. We're back on NILF, Relaxation Protocol and any undesireable behaviors resulting in crating and removal from human interaction. She calmed down immediately and responded well to this. I think she was just anxious that there was less structure and leadership in our relationship during a time of change for her.

Through this, I have also confirmed my thoughts that she responds much better to this regime than to prong corrections, which is what I tried last week to see if it would be effective in communicating with her. It wasn't. Bad owner. Prong has been shelved away again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankieC View Post
This behaviour, in my less than expert opinion, extends beyond the frustrations we experience during "adolescence". Being challenged, ignored and dealing with a suddenly stubborn dog is one thing but a lunge and bite is another. Was there any damage to your friend? A stranger may not have seen it the same way.

I'm sure you are on the right track and lots of great advice here but more attention might need to be given to this incident.

Good luck!
No, no damage was done to my friend. She just jumped up and was mouthy with her. I don't think it was a lunge and bite. My friend is a tiny little person with a high voice, and she excitedly spoke to me in the dark while Puppy was in a hyper state. She has never done this before, so I do think is related to being too ramped up. She has no aggression issues whatsoever, and this has been consistent with all the trainers that I have seen. The consistent training advice I have received is: teach more self control and be consistent.

Regardless of cause or effect, it won't be allowed to happen again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robinhuerta View Post
I am to believe that the "bark, jumping up and nipping" is simply due to the fact...she knew the person, was overly excited and displayed an desired action, such as the nipping of the fingers.
*This happens to ME many times from other people's dogs....when they are over excited to see me.....and usually, they too...are young dogs.*.....any most times, NOT one of "our" dogs.
THIS action needs to be corrected....as NO ONE wants to be mauled by anyone else's dogs...(in a non aggressive way or not).
Aggression and "bad manners" are two different things...... but both are non acceptable, and need to be addressed.

Again Marshies.......you have an adolescent dog....continue with training, be fair and consistant.
I agree Robin. Now that a day has passed, and I have set new expectations for both of us, I am no longer frustrated with her behavior, and she has shown much improvement in just a day.

Thanks for your support again. I always need reminders that she's still an adolescent.

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Originally Posted by JeanKBBMMMAAN View Post
I may be different in that I like a dog with spirit, a sense of fun, and a desire to try out new (appropriate) behaviors - I do not like a robotic, dull dog. Of course, in order to do this, the foundation of training and relationship is hugely important, but I would be very happy to see that my dog had the oomph to play, even if part of it was needing to run off about 2 weeks of pent up zoomies.
She loves to play, and is particularly engaged with me in play. My sister is tasked with playing with her and pottying her when she comes after school each day, and the sister reports less excitement in playing with her.

So I'd like to think I'm a little special. I also love that she has oomph when she plays, it makes play fun for both of us.

I guess my frustration is in that I am a controlling person, and her expressing her excitement outside of my controlled style upsetted me. I always forget she is a learning, living, changing creature.

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Originally Posted by GatorBytes View Post
I think the problem here is the dog has regressed since spay, if this was a problem and the dog hadn't been spayed or was an ongoing problem, then yes - look at it as immaturity.

However - looking at it as behavioural ONLY is doing a disservice to the dogs health.

Never overlook behavioural changes, especially after a major surgery, post vaccination or along with other symptoms such as supposed allergies, ear infections etc.

Try RAW, carb free to start - means no carrots, potatoes, peas, other legumes.
Thanks! Going completely raw isn't an option for us right now. I tried it last summer, and given the resources I have available to me, it wasn't the balanced, wholesome, and quality diet that I'd like to feed her. Though she is on the best kibble diet possible - Orijen, and has done well.

Vet gave her a clear bill of health, but I will continue to monitor her to make sure she is progressing nicely.
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Last edited by marshies; 12-20-2012 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:27 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marshies View Post
First off, thank you guys for the many responses and thought you've put in.

It may be early, and I don't want to jinx it, but I have two pieces of good news to share.

We were at the vets yesterday for her vaccines for DHPP and Rabies, and the vet gave her a clear bill of health. Vet also said she was well-behaved but a drivey puppy, which is great news. I was mainly worried that her spay was affecting her negatively.

Thanks! Going completely raw isn't an option for us right now. I tried it last summer, and given the resources I have available to me, it wasn't the balanced, wholesome, and quality diet that I'd like to feed her. Though she is on the best kibble diet possible - Orijen, and has done well.

Vet gave her a clear bill of health, but I will continue to monitor her to make sure she is progressing nicely.
The vet gave her a clean bill of health based on WHAT? Did she have a series of blood work done prior and results came in before the app.? Hormone tests?

I mean it would be prudent given 5 weeks of behavioural problems AFTER a spay at 16mnths when the dog's behaviour was were you wanted it to be at 7 months.

The vet felt her up, checked her heart rate, temp, looked in her eyes and ears - gave you a thumbs up and then jabbed her with a multi-vaccine AND RABIES!!!

Even the conventional mode of vax. does NOT support rabies at same time as a multi...AND your Vet should have listened to your concerns and post-poned the vaccines and given only after a TRUE bill of health and once she was in balance.

Vaccines should never be given with 6 months of a major surgery.

In fact if the incident w/neighbour happened after the vaccine, well, that may have been the cause. NOW, in less then 24 hrs. all your concerns have been erased because she mellowed overnight and post vaccine??? and b/c your vet said so, based on a clean bill of health so he/she could give a vaccine.

Your dog mellowed because she is feeling the effects of vaccine.

You need a new Vet.


There are tons of resources in T.O. to feed raw. Keep in mind if she reverts back to her less then stellar behaviour.

If she gets worse, PM me and I will direct you to a couple of Integrative vets that may be able to help you IF this goes south (south being, even worse behaviours, aggression, seizures, hair loss, itchy skin, hot spots, diarrhea etc.) Keep your eye on her for next few days...if she looks off balance or lethargic, DEMAND from your vet to note this and report as a vaccine reaction.

Sorry to sound so harsh...all may be just fine, but I don't want you to take this lightly. This could have consequences far into the future that you will not relate back to this.
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:52 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorBytes View Post
The vet gave her a clean bill of health based on WHAT? Did she have a series of blood work done prior and results came in before the app.? Hormone tests?

I mean it would be prudent given 5 weeks of behavioural problems AFTER a spay at 16mnths when the dog's behaviour was were you wanted it to be at 7 months.

The vet felt her up, checked her heart rate, temp, looked in her eyes and ears - gave you a thumbs up and then jabbed her with a multi-vaccine AND RABIES!!!

Even the conventional mode of vax. does NOT support rabies at same time as a multi...AND your Vet should have listened to your concerns and post-poned the vaccines and given only after a TRUE bill of health and once she was in balance.

Vaccines should never be given with 6 months of a major surgery.

In fact if the incident w/neighbour happened after the vaccine, well, that may have been the cause. NOW, in less then 24 hrs. all your concerns have been erased because she mellowed overnight and post vaccine??? and b/c your vet said so, based on a clean bill of health so he/she could give a vaccine.

Your dog mellowed because she is feeling the effects of vaccine.

You need a new Vet.


There are tons of resources in T.O. to feed raw. Keep in mind if she reverts back to her less then stellar behaviour.

If she gets worse, PM me and I will direct you to a couple of Integrative vets that may be able to help you IF this goes south (south being, even worse behaviours, aggression, seizures, hair loss, itchy skin, hot spots, diarrhea etc.) Keep your eye on her for next few days...if she looks off balance or lethargic, DEMAND from your vet to note this and report as a vaccine reaction.

Sorry to sound so harsh...all may be just fine, but I don't want you to take this lightly. This could have consequences far into the future that you will not relate back to this.
Thank you for the post.

The vet heard her heart rate, checked her incision, observed her behavior, and gave her the vaccines, like you said. She told me the behavior problems are likely the result of a lack of exercise and regression in training post-spay, but to keep her posted.

No, the incident with the friend happened before the vaccines.

The problem with feeding raw isn't places to get it, it's the ability to feed Puppy. I work pretty long hours (7-9) sometimes, and my family members have to be able to feed Puppy, and buy the food for her. They aren't on board with feeding raw for a variety of reasons, so I respect that decision because I need their help.

All my concerns aren't erased, but I am seeing improvement in her problems, which were mainly mouthier than usual, and unable to settle. I will keep your post in mind, if she does go "south".

She isn't aggressive in any way, that |I have no doubt. So if she ever does display aggression, I will have a full vet check on her.
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:05 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marshies View Post
Thank you for the post.

The vet heard her heart rate, checked her incision, observed her behavior, and gave her the vaccines, like you said. She told me the behavior problems are likely the result of a lack of exercise and regression in training post-spay, but to keep her posted.

No, the incident with the friend happened before the vaccines.

The problem with feeding raw isn't places to get it, it's the ability to feed Puppy. I work pretty long hours (7-9) sometimes, and my family members have to be able to feed Puppy, and buy the food for her. They aren't on board with feeding raw for a variety of reasons, so I respect that decision because I need their help.

All my concerns aren't erased, but I am seeing improvement in her problems, which were mainly mouthier than usual, and unable to settle. I will keep your post in mind, if she does go "south".

She isn't aggressive in any way, that |I have no doubt. So if she ever does display aggression, I will have a full vet check on her.
O.K

Again, I didn't want to come across as crass, just irks me when vets dismiss owner concerns. I think it was prudent of you to look into the hormonal aspect, despite everyone assuring you that this is adolecent faze - which, could ver well be...but sometimes your gut tells you otherwise, and you are the spokesperson for your dog and have to advocate for...It is always alright to disagree with you vet if you are not comfortable.

I still maintain, the vax. should have waited and the all in one and rabies should have been done weeks apart, and none should have been done this short a time after spay and not when she was exhibiting behavioural problems outside the norm.

However, just for future ref...if she starts to exhibit allergy symtoms, hair loss, or any other noted already...PM me and give your general area TO east,west , central, north - there is a holistic vet on O'Connor and one in Newmarket...they would be best to address hormonal and/or vaccine induced issues.

Your vet is conventional and IMO, neglegent or following the companies model of business....IF your pup starts to exibit, she will need more then benedryl and/or steroids - trust me

Enjoy your doggie, don't be too cool with her shortly after vax. she probably isn't feeling quite right.

Cheers
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:43 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorBytes View Post
O.K

Again, I didn't want to come across as crass, just irks me when vets dismiss owner concerns. I think it was prudent of you to look into the hormonal aspect, despite everyone assuring you that this is adolecent faze - which, could ver well be...but sometimes your gut tells you otherwise, and you are the spokesperson for your dog and have to advocate for...It is always alright to disagree with you vet if you are not comfortable.

I still maintain, the vax. should have waited and the all in one and rabies should have been done weeks apart, and none should have been done this short a time after spay and not when she was exhibiting behavioural problems outside the norm.

However, just for future ref...if she starts to exhibit allergy symtoms, hair loss, or any other noted already...PM me and give your general area TO east,west , central, north - there is a holistic vet on O'Connor and one in Newmarket...they would be best to address hormonal and/or vaccine induced issues.

Your vet is conventional and IMO, neglegent or following the companies model of business....IF your pup starts to exibit, she will need more then benedryl and/or steroids - trust me

Enjoy your doggie, don't be too cool with her shortly after vax. she probably isn't feeling quite right.

Cheers
Thank you!

I'm a first time dog owner, so I default to reasons I can understand and google, like hormones and changes in routine, instead of common sense, like dog adolescence. I usually use the forum as a "sounding board" for my sanity and the reasonableness of my questions and concerns before running off to a vet/trainer every time.

We just did a good game of tug and hide-and-seek in the house. She was very eager to play, and is now settling herself in the room. I am just glad she wants to play, engage with me, and is making an effort to settle.
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:17 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Your vet is conventional and IMO, neglegent or following the companies model of business.
I'm sorry but these are really heavy duty charges, you don't even know the person.

And they are following guidelines approved by the AMVA whether or not you agree with them.
Opinions are just that, and of course everyone has them - when a vet follows established guidelines, they are not being "negligent".

https://www.aahanet.org/Library/CanineVaccine.aspx

https://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocume...Guidelines.pdf

Community Practice Vaccination Protocols from the College of Veterinary Medicine

Quote:
She was very eager to play, and is now settling herself in the room. I am just glad she wants to play, engage with me, and is making an effort to settle.
Sounds like she's on the right track
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:24 PM   #39 (permalink)
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msvette - It's not a one size fits all, and that is negligent.

When conventional vets start treating our dogs like individuals...then I may change my mind...but this classic money first, health second
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:01 PM   #40 (permalink)
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but this classic money first, health second
Can you explain why you think that? Because, from what the OP has said, this vet is following proper protocol, did not do anything outside of protocol.
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