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Old 11-24-2012, 03:37 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Lets not forget the steroid pain management injection that was contaminated with fungus causing menengitis and 20 deaths in humans...just this past sept./oct.
To me, that's hardly an indication of how legit pharmaceutical companies run; it is unfortunate, but that company was operating outside of what was legal.

And just as many issues can arise with "natural" drugs.

One huge reason I would not use "homeopathy" in my dogs is the fact that dogs are not small humans with fur.
They are different species...well, technically, an "order" but they are definitely different and the way they metabolize drugs vs. how humans metabolize them is why I'd never tinker with many homeopath drugs meant for humans.

For example;
Raisins - healthy for humans, deadly to dogs.
Onions - deadly while we eat them without harm.
Xylitol - healthy for humans, excellent for human dental health, yet deadly to dogs.
Ivermectin - safe for many dogs and even humans yet deadly to some breeds of dogs. Along that same line, immodium is toxic to those dogs sensitive to ivermectin.
Tea Tree Oil - extremely toxic to dogs (I've seen people recommend this for dogs, thinking it's safe!)
Chocolate -toxic to dogs in large or concentrated forms, we eat it without harm
Avocados -toxic to many pets, not just dogs.
Hops -used in beer making but has killed dogs, even one on this board.
Ibuprofen -anti-inflammatory safe for humans, will kill dogs (many other meds as well)

The list goes on - Toxic Foods and Plants for Dogs

Meanwhile many of the natural/homeopathic things are given to humans safely, while no studies involved animals.

So...of the two, I'd stick with a vet, where studies have been performed for decades, over a health food store designed for people and not the unique needs and processing capabilities of animals.
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Old 11-24-2012, 03:40 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by msvette2u View Post
To me, that's hardly an indication of how legit pharmaceutical companies run; it is unfortunate, but that company was operating outside of what was legal.

And just as many issues can arise with "natural" drugs.

One huge reason I would not use "homeopathy" in my dogs is the fact that dogs are not small humans with fur.
They are different species...well, technically, an "order" but they are definitely different and the way they metabolize drugs vs. how humans metabolize them is why I'd never tinker with many homeopath drugs meant for humans.

For example;
Raisins - healthy for humans, deadly to dogs.
Onions - deadly while we eat them without harm.
Xylitol - healthy for humans, excellent for human dental health, yet deadly to dogs.
Ivermectin - safe for many dogs and even humans yet deadly to some breeds of dogs. Along that same line, immodium is toxic to those dogs sensitive to ivermectin.
Tea Tree Oil - extremely toxic to dogs (I've seen people recommend this for dogs, thinking it's safe!)
Chocolate -toxic to dogs in large or concentrated forms, we eat it without harm
Avocados -toxic to many pets, not just dogs.
Hops -used in beer making but has killed dogs, even one on this board.
Ibuprofen -anti-inflammatory safe for humans, will kill dogs (many other meds as well)

The list goes on - Toxic Foods and Plants for Dogs

Meanwhile many of the natural/homeopathic things are given to humans safely, while no studies involved animals.

So...of the two, I'd stick with a vet, where studies have been performed for decades, over a health food store designed for people and not the unique needs and processing capabilities of animals.

OMG - leave me alone
Why don't you quote DOCTOR Jean Dodd's and fine away to discredit.

Homeopathic/Holisitc DOCTORS abound...give them your list....
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Last edited by GatorBytes; 11-24-2012 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 11-24-2012, 03:50 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Some homeo is okay. There's many many more formulations that are untested (on dogs) and designed for humans. Some of those many indeed cause kidney or liver damage, or damage to blood cells.
If people think twice, and do their research even more often, that's fine.
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Old 11-24-2012, 04:48 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msvette2u View Post
One huge reason I would not use "homeopathy" in my dogs is the fact that dogs are not small humans with fur.
They are different species...well, technically, an "order" but they are definitely different and the way they metabolize drugs vs. how humans metabolize them is why I'd never tinker with many homeopath drugs meant for humans.

For example;
Raisins - healthy for humans, deadly to dogs.
Onions - deadly while we eat them without harm.
Xylitol - healthy for humans, excellent for human dental health, yet deadly to dogs.
Ivermectin - safe for many dogs and even humans yet deadly to some breeds of dogs. Along that same line, immodium is toxic to those dogs sensitive to ivermectin.
Tea Tree Oil - extremely toxic to dogs (I've seen people recommend this for dogs, thinking it's safe!)
Chocolate -toxic to dogs in large or concentrated forms, we eat it without harm
Avocados -toxic to many pets, not just dogs.
Hops -used in beer making but has killed dogs, even one on this board.
Ibuprofen -anti-inflammatory safe for humans, will kill dogs (many other meds as well)

The list goes on - Toxic Foods and Plants for Dogs

.
Do you even know what homeopathy IS? That list, in relation to homeopathy is utterly nonsensical.
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Old 11-24-2012, 04:55 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Yes, I do.
My point is, there's dozens of things safe for humans that cause illness in dogs, and even death.
So be careful when tossing homeopathic remedies down a dogs throat that are tested and used and created for humans and not dogs.

To do so without double checking and triple checking and even asking your vet (!!!) would be "utterly nonsensical".

Yet it's recommended and condoned while veterinary care is shunned

Dogs are not small humans with fur.

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Old 11-24-2012, 09:59 PM   #56 (permalink)
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I'm going to dive into this thread ... after having read the whole thing.

There is a difference between homeopathic, holistic and alternative / natural medicines.


Definition of Homeopathic Medicine
Definition: Homeopathic medicine is a form of alternative medicine that uses very small amounts of natural substances, which in higher amounts would cause a disease. The theory behind this form of medicine is that "like cures like," and that a substance that causes an illness in a healthy person might cure those symptoms in someone who is ill.
Homeopathic medicine differs from allopathic (or mainstream, conventional) medicine, which uses agents (medicines, chemotherapy, surgery, etc.) that produce a different effect than the disease.


What Is Holistic Medicine?
What Is Holistic Medicine?


Holistic Medicine is defined by the Canadian Holistic Medical Association as follows.

  • Holistic medicine is a system of health care which fosters a cooperative relationship among all those involved, leading towards optimal attainment of the physical, mental emotional, social and spiritual aspects of health.

    It emphasizes the need to look at the whole person, including analysis of physical, nutritional, environmental, emotional, social, spiritual and lifestyle values. It encompasses all stated modalities of diagnosis and treatment including drugs and surgery if no safe alternative exists. Holistic medicine focuses on education and responsibility for personal efforts to achieve balance and well being.
Suzan Walter, President of the American Holistic Health Association (AHHA), put together an excellent summary of the principals of Holistic Health. The summary can be found on the AHHA Web Page. For those unfamiliar with Holistic Medicine, I strongly encourage reading this short summary.


Other Terms Associated with Holistic Medicine

Alternative Medicine is often used by the general public and some healthcare practitioners to refer to medical techniques which are not known or accepted by the majority "conventional" or "allopathic" medical practitioners (usually M.D.'s). Such techniques could include non-invasive, non-pharmaceutical techniques such as Medical Herbalism, Acupunture, Homeopathy, Reiki, and many others. However, the term Alternative Medicine can also refer to any experimental drug or non-drug technique that is not currently accepted by "conventional" medical practitioners. As non-invasive, non-pharmaceutical techniques become popular and accepted by large number of "conventional" practitioners, these techniques will no longer be considered Alternative Medicine.

Alternative Medicine refers to techniques that are not currently accepted by "conventional" practitioners, but what is currently accepted is quickly changing. Even the definition of "conventional practitioners" is quickly changing. Therefore, techniques that are now considered part of Alternative Medicine will soon be considered part of "conventional" medicine. The terms Holistic Healing and Holistic Medicine are slightly more stable than Alternative Medicine and are therefore preferable.

  • Complementary Medicine is often used by "conventional" medical practitioners to refer to non-invasive, non-pharmaceutical techniques used as a complement to "conventional" medical treatments such as drugs and surgery. The term implies that "conventional" medicine is used as a primary tool and the non-invasive, non-pharmaceutical techniques are used as a supplement when needed.

    In many cases, properly chosen non-invasive and non-pharmaceutical healing techniques plus properly chosen lifestyle changes can completely and safely heal both acute and chronic illnesses. In other cases, "conventional" medicine is only needed in emergencies or when the safer non-invasive, non-pharmaceutical methods fail. In some cases "conventional" medicine will be a major part of a Holistic Healing Plan, but in some cases it is not needed at all.
  • Natural Healing usually refers to the use of non-invasive and non-pharmaceuticals techniques to help heal the patient. When most people use the term Natural Healing, they are usually referring to physical healing techniques only.
After losing two cats, a dog and 3 ferrets to "modern veterinary medicine", I started searching high and low for a better way to treat my animals.

I use the holistic method - the WHOLE of the being. I use this for myself and for all of my animals. I have found a huge difference in myself since I quit eating processed foods, don't drink and exercise regularly. And by processed foods, I mean, I eat nothing that comes out of a container / box / package. I have one exception ... one coffee a day.

I feed my animals the same way ... and I use a holistic approach to "heal" my animals. I use minimal to no vaccines and ALL of my animals are extremely healthy.

One of my cats became diabetic from eating commercial cat food RECOMMENDED by the vet. He almost died following "modern" medication. I switched to home made food, and holistic healing and his diabetes was reversed and he was healthier than he had ever been.

My last dog was raw fed, had one set of vaccines in her life (as a puppy, at different times). She was titered at age 3 ... still fine, no vaccines needed. I brought her in at age 6.5 to have her titered again. My vet was on holidays, no problem, have the techs draw the blood and send it out. While they were drawing blood for titers a vet VACCINATED her b/c she was "unvaccinated".

She died in my arms 24 hours later, in convulsions, on the way back to the vet.

There are awesome vets and there are horrible vets. I've certainly run into my share of both.

There is "modern medicine" and then there is medicine that has been around for thousands of years. That "old" medicine has helped "mankind" and animals for a lot more years than new technology has. New medicine certainly has its benefits. A torn ACL can be surgically repaired and the dog back in shape in 6 months, there are many other examples.

BUT ... with the crappy commercial food that people are feeding their dogs, the over vaccination that goes on constantly - the amount of toxins that are dumped into a dog ... and people wonder why our dogs are sicker now than they were 50 years ago?

What's changed? The only answer I have - vaccines and food ... and neither of them are for the better. People are fatter than they used to be, less exercise, eat more junk food than they are supposed to, eat more processed food ... and people as a whole are worse off health wise than we were 50 years ago. And yet, we've done the same thing to our pets.

Holistic medicine treats the WHOLE ... not just the "problem" ... modern medicine treats the problem, and forgets about the root. That is the MAJOR difference.
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:16 AM   #57 (permalink)
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I'm very fortunate to have found a vet who's allopathic (mainstream) and also schooled in homeopathy. I'm trying alternative medicine on this puppy for the same reason that I'm trying different training techniques. Long term, if I'm not satisfied, I can always go back to the 'tried and true' methods. But I'm thinking that if he can avoid abx, then he's better off. Maybe not, but my vet thinks it's worth a shot.
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:41 AM   #58 (permalink)
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trying to help the OP . My first posts were for the purpose of fact finding , getting more information on the situation with her dog and why it had two vaccinations so young . It is obvious that this person is caring . Feels there is an eye-problem , does not let it slide , takes the time and expense to consult a vet . Looking for the best.

I do not , did not fault her.

My issue was with the vet . In my opinion he took advantage .

That is why I said to the OP , "two sets of shots -- slow down , enjoy the pup , don't over worry and create problems "

Because in my opinion the services that were provided , no more so the services yet to come , would create a problem that may not show itself till mid-age .

It is early days yet - and the pup - who apparently had a shaky start -- can achieve good and abundant health, if well nurished , which is more than well fed .

If the dog is sound in its temperament it will be totally fine and sound if it has a good association with ONE person . These are the findings in the Bar Harbour studies where experiments were done with deprevation of social contact and with flooding and with minimal. That ONE person sort of represents humanity .

If the dog is less than solid , then flooding it with environmental and social stimulation will stress it . Give the dog reason to be confident with you and the household then move out in slow toe-in-the-water increments , not the through the dog into the water and swim for your life to dry ground .

To add to the discussion on vaccinations I hope to find a published article going back to 1990 , quoting a top British research scientist who challenged the on-lable recommendations and the philosophy of needing boostering .

so tell us about this pup .
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:51 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Kyleigh, I appreciated your detailed explanation

Quote:
and people as a whole are worse off health wise than we were 50 years ago. And yet, we've done the same thing to our pets.
This isn't really true - well, maybe some are worse off, but people today live longer than ever. In my family, my great Grandma died at age 70ish. My grandma is going on 90 and still alive. 50 yrs. ago she'd have passed away at 70, as well, but modern medicine came about and has literally saved her life.
My grandpa is alive, too, having had a pacemaker implanted some 8 yrs. ago. He'd have died 50yrs. ago, as well, but again, modern medicine changed all that.

There was a time when distemper was the scourge of the land. Thanks to vaccines and herd immunity, it's no longer the huge threat it once was.
Rabies was a killer of domesticated dogs as well, and it's all but eradicated in pet populations.
Vaccines are not useless, not by a long shot.

I'm sorry you had the negative experience, but we've vaccinated over 150 dogs per year (plus our own) for the past 10yrs. now and never had a negative experience such as that. I know lepto can cause issues, we don't use that and recommend our adopters to not do it either.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:33 PM   #60 (permalink)
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My last dog was raw fed, had one set of vaccines in her life (as a puppy, at different times). She was titered at age 3 ... still fine, no vaccines needed. I brought her in at age 6.5 to have her titered again. My vet was on holidays, no problem, have the techs draw the blood and send it out. While they were drawing blood for titers a vet VACCINATED her b/c she was "unvaccinated".

She died in my arms 24 hours later, in convulsions, on the way back to the vet.
I don't have any real valuable info for the OP to add to this discussion other than our vet advised limited activity outside until he was fully vaccinated as well. We did follow their advice and did start socializing Jake with friends and family when we first got him. We did introduce him to my parents dog at 9 weeks old, but they've had Patches for 12 years and we know and trust that she was healthy and vaccinated.

I've turned to the internet and forums like this for help with our Jake over the last 8 months. I've learned if you ask for advice, you will receive differing advice and opinions. As a responsible pet owner I take that information, do additional research and talk it over with my vet to try and make the best informed decision I can. I'm lucky that the help and advice from another forum helped us determine what Jake's issue was and it wasn't anything our vet had thought about. But our vet listened and read the information I brought and was willing to work with us and now Jake is a healthy 70 pound 10 month of GSD. There is a lot lost in only using the written word to communicate and I've found some people can come off a little harsh when posting, but on the other hand some people are overly sensitive. I'd like to think at the end of the day we are all here because we love our dogs and want them to be happy and healthy.

And Kyleigh, how horrific and tragic what happened to your dog. I'd be furious if this happened to me. I don't blame you one bit for not trusting vets.
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