Clostridium (?) (loooong) (help please!)

[chelle]

I am so frustrated and bummed as to why I cannot seem to get a nice, consistently firm poop from this 9 month old dog.

If you can bear with me here and have anything to offer, I will love you forever.

History:

-- He came home at 11 weeks on Purina Pup Chow and had normal puppy poop.

-- I changed him over too fast to Innova LPB and he got true diahrrea. (1 week was too fast. I went back to the drawing board, did the chicken/rice thing, stools improved a lot in about a week.)

-- I then took over two weeks to slowly transition from Purina to Innova.

-- Stools became semi-firm with intermittent pudding/soft.

-- I removed all chewies for several+ days -- made no difference. Still semi-firm at times, then soft/runny at times; or often, would start semi-firm and end runny. Also yellowish and a HORRIBLE smell. Granted, poop isn't supposed to smell good, but the smell of that poop would gag you two feet away.

-- Added a digestive enzyme/probiotic. Added about a tablespoon of pumpkin each day. Gave him a large carrot about every other day (for the fiber.) It made a little difference.

-- Somewhere in this mess, he had a fecal positive for Coccidia. Treated with antibiotic, and re-tested in the clear.

-- I got him as stable as he's been and started to transition to Blue Buffalo Chicken and Brown Rice. Learning my lesson, I took a long time to do it. At first, I was pretty excited, as I did get some firmer stools. But I backed off the pumpkin a bit and the loose stools returned, so I don't know that the Blue Buffalo honestly had anything to do with it. I gave BB about six weeks? Decided to change again. (mistake?) (The horrific smell declined some once he was off Innova LPB.)

-- I took the same time and care to switch, this time, to Canidae All Life Stages. He's now been on the Canidae 100% for ... not quite a week. I am still giving the probiotic and pumpkin. Stools are the same as anything before. They are almost always yellow/mustard color. (Canidae is a light colored kibble, but BB was darker and they were still usually that mustardy color.)

-- I took a fecal sample to the vet today and they said Clostridium. I didn't know there is a "Perfringens" and a "Difficile" and still don't quite understand the difference.

Questions here:

-- From what I've read, this is natural in dogs (clostridium) and a simple fecal isn't very accurate in diagnosing this? One web site said this: "Since 80% of dogs harbor Clostridium perfringens whether they have diarrhea or not, culturing Clostridium perfringens from a fecal sample will not be adequate for diagnosis; we have to find the toxin."

(source: 01 Clostridium Perfringens - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!)

So if my vet has prescribed an antibiotic, based only on a fecal test, are we shooting in the dark? (He was prescribed Metronidazole 500 mg, 1 tablet every 12 hours until gone (28 tablets / 2 weeks worth. He is 55'ish lbs.)

In summary, I just want to clarify!:

-- Bailey does not have true diahrrea and hasn't had it since that very first food switch at 11 weeks. According to this lovely chart:




He is a 3 on his BEST day, a 5 on many days and a 6 at his worst.

Other poop facts:

-- No blood, no mucous in his stools.
-- Some seemingly straining at times.
-- It *seems* his anus is "sore" or too red at times.
-- He has never "scooted" or drug his behind, but he licks his anus after pooping.
-- He is clear of any parasites.
-- He's had his anal glands expressed twice. The first time the vet said they were infected and he had antibiotics. (Dang, I can't remember where this fit into the timeline ) The second time the vet said they were full, but no infection and this was a few weeks ago.

I am definitely looking into SIBO/EPI, but too many things don't "fit." (Looking at this website: EPI in Dogs.) The first symptom listed "fits" -- the "cowpie" type feces - but not always. Just his worst feces. Not a single one of the other symptoms apply.

I am truly at a loss right now.

So, my game plan for now unless encouraged otherwise!

-- Continue with the Canidae ALS, considering he's 100% switched over and is no worse or better than the Blue Buffalo.
-- Give the course of antibiotic.
-- Continue with the pumpkin/ probiotic (spaced well away from the antibiotic.)
-- Examine his poop crazy close.
-- Pray.

??? ???

Later game plan I'm thinking about....

-- Change food yet again. Strongly considering getting away from chicken as a protein. Leaning towards TOTW Pacific Stream or Sierra Mountain. Not sure if calcium level is appropriate, but strongly considering this. (I won't make ANY rash food switches; this poor dude has been thru so many foods.) Also considering a sensitive tummy formula.

--EPI / SIBO testing.


What am I missing, doing wrong, not doing or otherwise? I really, seriously, desperately want to "fix" this soft poo thing. Other than this? He's the perfect picture of health. Very active, happy, attentive, focused. I believe him to be at a very healthy weight. He eats on a schedule and his food is measured.... so I ASSURE, I am *not* overfeeding him. (I understand that contributes strongly to soft poo.)

???? If you've made it this far, you are a saint.

[msvette2u]

Have you gone back to a middle of the road food?? I like Kirkland or Diamond Naturals.
I mean...if he only had good poop on Purina, go back to that, try to work up to ONE or Pro Plan though

-- Continue with the Canidae ALS, considering he's 100% switched over and is no worse or better than the Blue Buffalo.
-- Give the course of antibiotic.
-- Continue with the pumpkin/ probiotic (spaced well away from the antibiotic.)
-- Examine his poop crazy close.
-- Pray.

I'd do all the above but go with DN or Kirkland or something along those lines.

[GatorDog]

He doesn't sound like an EPI/SIBO case to me. And many vets in my area spread out metro antibiotics to anyone who walks in with a dog who has diarrhea. I am personally not a fan of it and will choose not to use it when I can.

I'd switch his food to Natural Balance Limited Ingredient Diet. It has a pretty limited list of ingredients, so if it's something in the food that Bailey is sensitive to, then you can try and pin point it a little more accurately. Many dogs have the stool that you described when they are sensitive to the protein in the food. If I were you, I'd start with the lamb and rice and see how he does. And if you were looking into switching to a grain free food, they also offer a few grain free formulas. But in my experience, the Nat Bal L.I.D lamb and rice for about 2 months pretty much "cleansed" my dog out and finally gave him the quality stool that I was looking for.

Now, Aiden eats Acana's lamb formula mixed with Natural Balance lamb and rice with no probiotics and is doing amazing. This is after a year of searching for something to end his loose stool.

I feel your pain. I sincerely wish you good luck with this! And consider giving the Natural Balance a try!

[msvette2u]

I'd use the metro because it's an anti-inflammatory and can help calm things down.
Tylan could be used to see if it helps, even in the face of a dx that's not SIBO.
It's similar in action to metro (metro is used even in SIBO as well).

[selzer]

Canidae, made by Diamond, I had massive problems with poop, often looked like a 5/6 and sometimes 7/7 all blood. Feeding 4-health now (couple of months), made by Diamond too they say. Poo is normally around a 3-2 with the occasional 4-5, no blood in years -- after I got off of Canidae it was night and day different (stopped feeding Canidae about 2 years ago).

Coccidia -- don't they treat that with Albon?

Not sure about Clostridium, but they treated my girls with metronidazole, and bland food diet, until cleared up. Sometimes it helped. Sometimes it did not seem to help at all. Most of the dogs had 3 or 4 episodes, a couple had a dozen or so, poor Whitney had a lot of trouble. Even after switching foods, though the blood went away, she had a lot of looser stool, 5-6, much worse than the others.

I had her tested for EPI and SIBO and other stuff, all of which came back negative.

[Clyde]

How much do you feed? Is your dog currently at a good weight?
What are the probiotics and digestive enzymes you are using and dosage? (although it would be nice to get good poops without these I think they are good additions for dogs with digestive issues)

He did Ok with the home cooked chicken and rice? I second trying the Nat Bal Lamb and Rice? I find some dogs have issues with chicken the more it has been processed.

[chelle]

Originally Posted by GatorDog

He doesn't sound like an EPI/SIBO case to me. And many vets in my area spread out metro antibiotics to anyone who walks in with a dog who has diarrhea. I am personally not a fan of it and will choose not to use it when I can.

I'd switch his food to Natural Balance Limited Ingredient Diet. It has a pretty limited list of ingredients, so if it's something in the food that Bailey is sensitive to, then you can try and pin point it a little more accurately. Many dogs have the stool that you described when they are sensitive to the protein in the food. If I were you, I'd start with the lamb and rice and see how he does. And if you were looking into switching to a grain free food, they also offer a few grain free formulas. But in my experience, the Nat Bal L.I.D lamb and rice for about 2 months pretty much "cleansed" my dog out and finally gave him the quality stool that I was looking for.

Now, Aiden eats Acana's lamb formula mixed with Natural Balance lamb and rice with no probiotics and is doing amazing. This is after a year of searching for something to end his loose stool.

I feel your pain. I sincerely wish you good luck with this! And consider giving the Natural Balance a try!

My other dog is on Natural Choice LID - Venison and Potatoe. (I'm going to switch to Nat BALANCE over CHOICE next bag, though...) Maybe I'll try to put him on that food, too?

Originally Posted by msvette2u

Have you gone back to a middle of the road food?? I like Kirkland or Diamond Naturals.
I mean...if he only had good poop on Purina, go back to that, try to work up to ONE or Pro Plan though

I'd do all the above but go with DN or Kirkland or something along those lines.

Ew. Purina? Ew. Still on the Canidae for now. He's been thru enough, I'm scared to mess with it so soon - hoping to see some kind of result as the course of medication is given.

Originally Posted by msvette2u

I'd use the metro because it's an anti-inflammatory and can help calm things down.
Tylan could be used to see if it helps, even in the face of a dx that's not SIBO.
It's similar in action to metro (metro is used even in SIBO as well).

Originally Posted by selzer

Canidae, made by Diamond, I had massive problems with poop, often looked like a 5/6 and sometimes 7/7 all blood. Feeding 4-health now (couple of months), made by Diamond too they say. Poo is normally around a 3-2 with the occasional 4-5, no blood in years -- after I got off of Canidae it was night and day different (stopped feeding Canidae about 2 years ago).

Coccidia -- don't they treat that with Albon?

Not sure about Clostridium, but they treated my girls with metronidazole, and bland food diet, until cleared up. Sometimes it helped. Sometimes it did not seem to help at all. Most of the dogs had 3 or 4 episodes, a couple had a dozen or so, poor Whitney had a lot of trouble. Even after switching foods, though the blood went away, she had a lot of looser stool, 5-6, much worse than the others.

I had her tested for EPI and SIBO and other stuff, all of which came back negative.

Wow so Canidae sure didn't work out for you. And yes, they treated coccidia with Albon. I was wrong there.

Originally Posted by Clyde

How much do you feed? Is your dog currently at a good weight?
What are the probiotics and digestive enzymes you are using and dosage? (although it would be nice to get good poops without these I think they are good additions for dogs with digestive issues)

He did Ok with the home cooked chicken and rice? I second trying the Nat Bal Lamb and Rice? I find some dogs have issues with chicken the more it has been processed.

How much will vary a bit, depending on activity, chewies, how many treats he received that day during training, but again, I am not overfeeding. If we've had a super active few days, he may get what the bag recommends.

The probiotic/dig enzyme is a pill that I got from Petco, so probably not the best available. 1 pill per day according to the chart for a dog his size.

He did get some good poop from chicken and rice, but it was kind of... green? I thought that was quite strange.

Thanks for the help everyone.

[Shaina]

Canidae did not work for my two dogs either. I waited it out with the whole bag and it didnt get better.

[Clyde]

I would look into getting a better probiotic and digestive enzyme the dosage also sounds really low depending on the size of the pills. Sometimes the dosage on the bottle is just a maintenance dose for a healthy dog the therapeutic dose could be very different. I just worry that dogs who have had digestive problems for this long will have a lasting effect from the flora being out of whack for so long in the intestine. It might not be only a matter of finding the right food but of also getting his digestive system back to a healthy state. So if home cooked chicken and rice gives him consecutive good poops I would do this for like a month just so his digestive system can settle.

[eddie1976E]

I would try Digest All Plus for enzyme. It worked well for us. It is very cost effective.