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Old 01-04-2013, 11:23 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Anyone breeding a "line" of GSDs for service?

To expound on a recent thread, there was a discussion about GSDs being bred for service. There is a new poster/breeder here who is trying to do just that, I'm guessing by using WGSL (though he/she has been quite secretive about the actual pedigrees/bloodlines used, so I'm not sure). The question has been posed, is there anyone out there who is having success with breeding a line of GSDs strictly for service work?

I know many breeders have had their pups go on to become service dogs, but they weren't breeding specifically FOR that--just for sound, healthy dogs with working temperament.

Furthermore, is anyone accomplishing that goal by crossing showlines with working lines? Our new friend is pretty sure that no one has done it, but I bet that someone, somewhere, has been crossing show x work (or as our friend calls it, "interracial breeding") and getting pups that are suited for service work. I have heard that such crossing is being done in Switzerland, and that they are having some success with doing so over many generations.

Can anyone expound on this? If you are a breeder and have produced a number of service dogs, what bloodlines are you using? Has anyone here ever done a breeding with the specific intent to produce service dogs?

I know there are organizations that are breeding GSDs as guide dogs, with their own breeding program, but I do not know what bloodlines are being used. I do remember reading (this was many years ago) that one organization was using a line of heavily inbred dogs--most of them were black--and they were having pretty good success with that line.

Does anyone else have good information to offer on service dog breeding programs? Both historically, and currently?
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:26 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Fidelco?
http://www.fidelco.org/index.html

http://www.fidelco.org/breedwithin.html
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:05 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Does anyone else have good information to offer on service dog breeding programs? Both historically, and currently?
The majority of Rin Tin Tin puppies are placed as service dogs in training through the ARFKids Foundation. http://www.arfkids.com/index.htm
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:12 PM   #4 (permalink)
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back in the 80's I was consulting to a guide dog organization that had one of my females as brood , I had a thema in place --
then later on, cross referencing , checking into similar schemes I wanted to see what formula in genetics that they were using that was most productive in positive , certified animals. I was privileged to view pedigrees.

jokingly I could call it the Bodo-m Line as in bottom line.

A combination of the Bodo's so to say . Bodo Grafental to Bodo Lierberg (Bernd etc.) That is what I have in my day to day foundation "Carmspack" -- with new and additive material always bringing in herding line genetics. Some show lines get introduced when I inheret them through Yeulett's of British Columbia . But when she selects a show line it MUST work -- Bazita Olympus is an example ,

here is an example of an early dog used with success -- one of 11 pups - 7 of which were certified working guide dogs into their 10th year . Here is her pedigree G Jamie V Stolzenfels

so you see Bodo Grafental. Then Jamie produced Jette , this pedigree brings in the herding lines Hodenhof's Jette V Fernheim

then she was bred , now bringing in the B - Lierberg lines
so a construction of Bodo Lierberg , B-Lierberg , OLD herding from early Kirschental , and a touch of earlier WGSL before there was such a chasm in the criterian for specialization. G Ingo Degen V Fernheim

This last set of genetics was the foundation breeding genetics for a closed set on in-house guide dog breeding .
I believe 45 % of the breeding stock at the time had some relation to Ingo.

DDR when combined with herding seems to do exceptionally well in these disciplines. Do notice that the dogs do have SchH titles -
It's all about the intelligence of working with -- genetic obedience ---- natural instincts .
Show line dogs tend to miss out because they have not been deliberately had mindful breeding for these qualities.
Same dogs go to police , same dogs go to the SchH podium, same dogs go to families as a loving , stable, sane , companion.

Longevity is important . Orthopedics are important. Working WITH the handler , not for ,
is important.

I have shadowed trainers . Invited into the inner sanctum of Canine Vision Canada -- to view pups developing and placing guesses on eventual success or not. Same with on-street training when the dogs were road tested on the busiest pedestrian way in Toronto.
Seen training for many uses .

I'll probably be shot down for this - the person who inspired this thread has a youtubey clip of a female , heeling in beautiful crisp schH style "fuss" , platzing, man walking away, dog being recalled , leash flapping behind, crisply reporting in front finish, and then crisply swinging to "fuss" , and then rewarded by tidbit of food .

Fantastic for SchH sport . But in all my years of being in the midst of different work-functional dogs and training I have not seen that much commando type of training . Disabled people don't work there dogs like this. There is much more required of the dog , free thinking , choices to be made, best positioning , listening to nuances, being interested in the handler and responsible to them .
That is why the 8 year old dog being offered to the gentleman with spinal stenosis will likely not work out . The dog is not a tool . By the time the dog and new handler got in sync , bonded , the dog will be much to old
This is a dog who is "set" in the ways of his former handleer.
Same goes for police work -- the dog and handler need time working together to become a team . That is why dogs tend to retire when their handler retires --
a matter of communication.

written in bits and pieces in haste - more to come later.
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Old 01-04-2013, 01:35 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Nikon's breeder has a dog (owned by a member here) that I'm pretty sure has sired at least two, maybe more, litters for Leader Dog. I'm not sure of the females' pedigrees but they didn't look like straight WGSL litters. I think at least one was WL or part WL.
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:36 PM   #6 (permalink)
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this dogs brother Carmspack Blackjack Johnson sire for guide litters


because of the dam's line which is true to the formula in my first contribution to this post --
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:41 PM   #7 (permalink)
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One of my first gsd's was out of Otto v Stolzenfels, out of Bodo (grafental),,Otto was used in the Fidelco program..Dodge's father Klockows Wasdy also used in the FIdelco program.

Crooked Creek has quite a few of her puppies growing out for Fidelco as well.
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Old 01-04-2013, 07:40 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Heck, I'd love to see the answer to this, as I'm in the position of needing to find a new candidate myself.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:04 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
Longevity is important . Orthopedics are important. Working WITH the handler , not for , is important.
Absolutely!
I have shadowed trainers . Invited into the inner sanctum of Canine Vision Canada -- to view pups developing and placing guesses on eventual success or not. Same with on-street training when the dogs were road tested on the busiest pedestrian way in Toronto. Seen training for many uses .
Thatís great! Do you have any video footage of this?
I'll probably be shot down for this - the person who inspired this thread has a youtubey clip of a female , heeling in beautiful crisp schH style "fuss" , platzing, man walking away, dog being recalled , leash flapping behind, crisply reporting in front finish, and then crisply swinging to "fuss" , and then rewarded by tidbit of food .
Was a Tab flapping Thank you for the compliment but it was not SchH perfect she was a little slow that day especially with the "Platz"
Fantastic for SchH sport . But in all my years of being in the midst of different work-functional dogs and training I have not seen that much commando type of training . Disabled people don't work there dogs like this. There is much more required of the dog , free thinking , choices to be made, best positioning , listening to nuances, being interested in the handler and responsible to them .
There are other videos on the site and soon to come (by permission of the client) an entire public access test. "Commando?" hardly. My father trained those dogs in the military. Not even close.

After you view the rest of the videos and almost a full length movie of a public access test, (I will have up by the end of the month) if you say these dogs are not "Thinking", I am sure a lot of people will call you on it.
That is why the 8 year old dog being offered to the gentleman with spinal stenosis will likely not work out . The dog is not a tool . By the time the dog and new handler got in sync , bonded , the dog will be much to old
This is a dog who is "set" in the ways of his former handleer. Same goes for police work -- the dog and handler need time working together to become a team . That is why dogs tend to retire when their handler retires -- a matter of communication.
No argument there. This is the REAL unfortunate part of people that need Service Dogs. People want them and are often desperate to get them. The emotional influence of others that tell them "They can do it or anything else when it comes to Service Dogs" is a dangerous combination for a lot of reasons and I am sure you will agree there are people in this industry that are giving the wrong advice. This advice is mostly politically, emotionally and even selfishly driven.
written in bits and pieces in haste - more to come later.

Replied bit by bit in quote (BLACK). You got a lot of knowledge but writing a book every time I reply is going to contribute to a serious case of carpel tunnel
I would love to see some footage of your "Service Dogs" can you post a link to them if you have any?
BTW, the bitch you were viewing is a WGSL pretty drive for that line huh
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:54 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
Nikon's breeder has a dog (owned by a member here) that I'm pretty sure has sired at least two, maybe more, litters for Leader Dog. I'm not sure of the females' pedigrees but they didn't look like straight WGSL litters. I think at least one was WL or part WL.

Yes Lies, Gavin has sired 3 litters for Leader Dogs and the feedback has been great, they obviously have liked what they see which makes me very happy and proud, the females appear to be working lines for the most part.


PS : Lies, please PM me about Nikon !
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