Service Dogs in Training...?

[Lin]

Yea I can see how that can happen! Instead of the tag to close the quote box, its an actual quotation mark.

The full post GordaLoca was replying to was this:

Originally Posted by Lin

It depends.

Give me a few minutes!! LOL

Ok, it depends on your state. Federally, SDITs have no public access rights. In California for example, SDITs have the exact same public access rights as SDs. In Indiana, SDITs have the same public access rights "when accompanied by a service dog trainer" and does not define service dog trainer. So you could interpret that to include owner trained dogs or only organization trained dogs. When Tessa was a SDIT, I started out calling places in advance and asking if they allowed SDITs just to cover my a**.

ETA: I don't consider it to be a loophole... IMO abusing a SDIT patch/vest is no different than abusing a SD one. Most of the time, if your dog doesn't cause a problem no one is going to question either. I could see where people might be more likely to abuse a SDIT one, since you could use the 'in training' as an excuse for inappropriate behavior. But people even slap therapy dog vests/patches on and take dogs places when therapy dogs have NO public access rights (they are only welcome when invited.)

I really do not like the quoting style of the forum!!! I really appreciate threads not being clogged down with useless quotes of quotes of quotes, but when so much gets automatically chopped off things get lost from context.

[wildrivers]

Where is it stated by law that California allows the same access for service dogs in training as a fully trained service dog? I can not find this law any where. Thanks.

[BeautifulChaos]

here: California Assistance Animal/Guide Dog Laws

"§ 54.2. Guide, signal or service dogs; right to accompany individuals with a disability and trainers; damages
.....
(b) Individuals who are blind or otherwise visually impaired and persons licensed to train guide dogs for individuals who are blind or visually impaired pursuant to Chapter 9.5 (commencing with Section 7200) of Division 3 of the Business and Professions Code or as defined in regulations implementing Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (Public Law 101-336), [FN1] and individuals who are deaf or hearing impaired and persons authorized to train signal dogs for individuals who are deaf or hearing impaired, and individuals with a disability and persons who are authorized to train service dogs for the individuals with a disability may take dogs, for the purpose of training them as guide dogs, signal dogs, or service dogs in any of the places specified in Section 54.1 without being required to pay an extra charge or security deposit for the guide dog, signal dog, or service dog. However, the person shall be liable for any damage done to the premises or facilities by his or her dog. These persons shall ensure the dog is on a leash and tagged as a guide dog, signal dog, or service dog by an identification tag issued by the county clerk, animal control department, or other agency, as authorized by Chapter 3.5 (commencing with Section 30850) of Title 14 of the Food and Agricultural Code"

[wildrivers]

Guess I am alittle confused with the statement below on having a authorized tag:
These persons shall ensure the dog is on a leash and tagged as a guide dog, signal dog, or service dog by an identification tag issued by the county clerk, animal control department, or other agency, as authorized by Chapter 3.5 (commencing with Section 30850) of Title 14 of the Food and Agricultural Code.
A violation of the right of an individual under the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (Public Law 101-336) also constitutes a violation of this section, and nothing in this section shall be construed to limit the access of any person in violation of that act.

I read in other posts (here on this forum) California only has 3 countys (one of which is not where I reside) who issue tags. So as a resident of a county who does not issue a SD in training tag, is my only legal protection to get a tag off the internet as the above states "other agency". ??

[ILGHAUS]

is my only legal protection to get a tag off the internet as the above states "other agency". ??

Tags, certificates, etc. off the Internet are scams and not legal.

Some states do not address (recognize) SDITs at all but people are still OT their dogs. You do not need to be able to take a dog "everywhere" you go to train. It is possible to train a SD in those places that are open to any well behaved pet.

As to the laws you will find that many times it seems that one dept. or one county does not seem to know what the other areas' regs or even the state statutes say. These grey areas are why in many cases a difference of opinion end up in a court of law.

Always verify through proper legal channels the info that you need to know if there is any confusion. Members here can give you our opinions (and we have several very knowledgeable people here) but for the real meaning go to your Attorney General's Office for the final word.

Tel: (916) 322-3360

[GatorDog]

I guess I don't really understand why people with a SD wouldn't want to have a standard way of identifying a legitimate SD over an impersonator. I personally know two different people who use their dogs as "Service Dogs" because they know exactly how to answer the only questions that people are allowed to ask. The one dog is an extremely obedient IPO trained Belgian Malinois and the other is an agility trained Border Collie. Both fly alongside their owners on airplanes and accompany them in whatever stores/places they go to. Neither is used for any disability services.

On the other hand, I have been to multiple different places where I have seen people with dogs that may or may not be SD's, but are definitely not qualified to hold that "title" either..I was once in the grocery store and saw a Chihuahua wearing a service vest sitting in the cart with its owner pushing it around. This dog may have been of some use to its handler, but it was growling and barking at anyone who got anywhere near it. That is totally unacceptable behavior for an animal in a public place, if you ask me. I have also been into stores in which these "service dogs" have literally taken a dump in the middle of an aisle, or almost gotten into a fight by an animal passing by..

If I needed a SD because of a disability, I would be completely furious with the fact that people get away with lying about it all the time. My dog is extremely obedient and will literally bring me anything I tell him to "bring". So I could technically slap a vest on him and bring him wherever I want? No one would ever know that he isn't really a SD because I know how to answer the very limited questions that they can ask and don't have to prove anything. All I would have to say is "He is trained to bring me things that I need".

It just seems like there are loopholes for people to take advantage of the law, and it ruins it for those who need it. Wouldn't even a very basic certification eliminate some of the people who are faking it?

[wildrivers]

Thanks for the replys. Most people with disabilitys dont want to walk around with a tagged dog saying they have a disability, some do. Its an owners choice thanks to federal law. I will go to my animal control officer and see what they can offer tomorrow for answers on a tag.

[ILGHAUS]

GatorDog, we have various threads here in this section on your topics where you can read much on your questions.

People fake SDs because they are dishonest and have no regard for who they hurt or the fact that they are breaking various laws. They believe they are special and above the law. They are willing to purchase items and even fake certifications to assist them.

I personally know two different people who use their dogs as "Service Dogs" because they know exactly how to answer the only questions that people are allowed to ask.

I personally have met a lot more then two including one who was the president of a local AKC based dog club and a minister to boot.

I was once in the grocery store and saw a Chihuahua wearing a service vest sitting in the cart with its owner pushing it around.

A Chihuahua is capable of walking at a heel next to its owner. Those who say they need their dog near their face so the dog can smell chemical changes don't seem to grasp the concept that dogs have very good noses and can detect smells more than 3' away.

but it was growling and barking at anyone who got anywhere near it.

Then that is the fault of the management of the store as they should (and legally can) tell the owner to remove the dog and that doesn't matter if the dog is in fact a SD. The same goes for if a dog eliminates in a store. Both of these are addressed by the Dept. of Justice.

If I needed a SD because of a disability, I would be completely furious with the fact that people get away with lying about it all the time.

Yes, it is a very touchy subject within the SD community and rightly so.

So I could technically slap a vest on him and bring him wherever I want?

You could put a vest on your dog but "technically" no. (I know what you mean. ) This is one reason that a group of us want our states to pass a statute which cracks down on those sellers of SD gear who encourage their sales based on making it easier for pet owners to present their pets as SDs.

[GatorDog]

Thanks for your response ILGHAUS. It just bothers me so much to know that some people really, truly need their dogs just so they can make it through the day, and people continually abuse the fact that the laws aren't really too "firm" when it comes to SD's. It's just not fair.

I don't plan on passing my dog off as a service dog, btw. =P It's just frustrating that the law makes it so easy for anyone to do so.

[beaderdog]

I think the main problem is not that the law regarding service dogs is "not firm", but that too often those in a position to ask whether or not a dog is a service dog fail to do so. If they ask the questions they are permitted by law to ask, it's likely that they'll weed out most of the imposters. I've run into many business owners who don't really have a clue what they can legally ask, so they either ask nothing, or just ask if it's a service dog & leave it at that. That's where education could make a big difference - if business owners & employees bother to learn what they can or cannot say it would be harder for imposters to pass off their non-service dogs. It's not the law that makes it easy, it's the lacksadaisical attitude of business owners & employees that does so.