Leaving your SD on a stay in a business

[IliamnasQuest]

A friend took me out to lunch the other day, at a Chinese restaurant that I had been to previously with Khana. It features a buffet (which is what most people eat there).

Both times we were seated at a table that was out of sight of the buffet table - around a little half-wall corner. It wasn't far from the buffet (this isn't a huge restaurant) but since the half-wall was there, you couldn't see the buffet if you were sitting down.

The logistics of trying to balance a plate, handle a leash, and meander around other people trying to get food seemed a bit daunting, so I left Khana on a down-stay under our table both times I was there. She was absolutely perfect and didn't move a bit (and was properly rewarded .. *L*).

I don't really know if there are unspoken "rules" for SD etiquette. Is it improper to leave your dog on a stay and go out of sight? I trust my dog, and even if something did happen (like someone messing with her) she would come looking for me. But under normal circumstances, in a sitation where you feel comfortable and feel that your dog is safe, is it wrong to leave her on a stay while you deal with something?

When I'm grocery shopping I often have her sit-stay while I pick through fruits or veggies, etc. and walk away from her so that I can handle the food without dealing with her leash. She is a really good staying dog - she just doesn't tend to break stays at all.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[Brightelf]

That's great that she holds her stays regardless of distractions in so many varied environments! Her stays sound so wonderfully solid! Great work with training her, and good Khana!!

I myself would never leave a SD unattended. It simply isn't safe/fair to either the dog or the public. Anyone might slip her food (even if she usually refuses food from strangers, imagine if the one time was something you did NOT wish her to ingest?). Anyone might trip over her-- no matter how well-placed in a corner/under a table overhang she is-- if they go to wipe off a table, add ketchup to the dispenser, etc. and do not see her. Anyone might startle, scream, jump, etc-- SD handlers need to remain with their dogs, for the safety of both their dogs and the public.

How do you do a buffet, then?

1.Off-lead heeling
2. Down-stay within eyesight of the buffet
3. Have your friend stay with her while you go up alone
Anything-- but leaving her out of your sight, without you there with her, may endanger the SD or the public.

At the grocery, a sit-stay within eyesight works for getting produce. Sometimes our hands are just busy! This is when off lead work comes into play. We just need to keep our SDs in our line of sight at all times, if not directly by our side.

[3K9Mom]

I use a service dog leash, so I just drape it over my arm or around my waist, so dealing with a leash isn't much of an issue. I also wear a rucksack instead of carrying a purse, which keeps my hands free. (My SD was very good about just threading his way around people.) So I guess my first question is what kind of leash are you using? Perhaps different equipment might help.

At grocery stores, I often told my SD to wait and I'd walk away from him maybe 2-3 feet. He just stood by the cart and watched me, but it was easier for him to hang out than go from the apples to the pears to the kumquats, while I bagged it all up and brought it back to the cart. So yes, I did leave my dog unattended in that way, meaning I wasn't holding on to his leash, but he was still right near me.

I didn't put him in a sit/stay because that didn't give him the ability to move away from someone if they got too close (a sit/stay is a *hard* position, whereas a "wait" means "hang out over here"). So he wasn't left in a vulnerable position. He also had that long GSD tail that sometimes got in the way, so standing meant that his tail wasn't in the way (which made him happy. He didn't like it when it looked like someone might step on his tail). A "wait" worked perfectly in that situation. Just because he has the obedience skills for something more solid doesn't mean that's the best thing to ask of him.


So that's what I did most of the time in stores and places like that.

I don't think I ever left him and walked so that I couldn't see him, unless it was just for a split second (like I was walking around a large post). It wasn't him I didn't trust. It's other people. I've had too many experiences when people would approach him and do odd things while he was with me. I just don't trust what people might do if I have my back turned. He was a large beautiful GSD, and who knows what could happen, or even what someone might accuse him of doing?

Also, my dog was an alert dog. He performed tasks, but he alerted. He needed to be near me to do that. That's a big part of the reason that I wanted him very close by.

In your shoes, I guess it depends whether I feel my dog would be safe. I know that you live in a smaller town and probably know a lot of the citizens there. If I had that luxury, then I'd probably feel differently.

I live in the suburbs, and where I live, overall is perfectly safe. But there are some odd folks out there. I just don't trust the public that much.

[Remo]

I have to tell you, when I first read Melanie's post I thought SD stood for Significant Dog. I was ready to move to Alaska thinking you could take your dog in grocery stores and restaurants! After I read the other posts I realized my mistake.

This gave me my first chuckle of the morning. Need more coffee!

[JakesDogs]

Your need to do so is reasonable, your SD sounds absolutely well trained and trustworthy, and you are clearly trying to do the most appropriate thing in this situation.

I'm about to respond with a naysaying, doomsday, negative attitude and I do so without apology. The circumstances are different but the truth, painful as it is, does not change - It is virtually never your dog you need to worry about. There are monsters whose goal on any given day, whether sadistic pleasure or profit, is to bring harm to our pets. Like a child, a dog can speak and resist, but his only true defense against this potential harm is you.

I know a man who had the most gorgeous, loving dog you could ever want to meet. Huge and handsome, both went everywhere together - work, play, joined at the hip - if you saw one, you saw the other. So well trained a leash rarely came into the picture.

One day on a break from work, this man and his dog took a quick detour for a walk on the beach. As was always the case, the dog ran and played within sight while his master walked the sand. On this absolutely routine and typical day for both, the dog ran from the boards to the water back and forth until one time when he went to the boards and, as his helpless human watched, in mere seconds, a car parked right against the walk opened a door, summoned the dog, scooped him up and drove away. Too far to get a license plate or identify the people involved, the dog was never found and his owner never recovered from this loss.

[IliamnasQuest]

Thanks for the comments. It seems that overall it's just personal preference and level of comfort in their own dog's training that dictates whether or not you step out of sight of your dog in a business setting. I have a tremendous amount of confidence in my dogs, and since I train myself it's a bit different than if someone acquired an already-trained SD and had to learn how to handle it. I know how my dogs have been trained since puppyhood - I was there every step! *L*

By the way, she was completely under the table against the wall - I had scooted out that chair so that she had a place to rest. She's smaller than a GSD so it's a bit easier to fit her in. No chance of someone stepping on her - and we were at an end table, so no one next to her at a table either.

I wouldn't leave my dog on a stay and go out of sight if I felt there was any danger. This restaurant was not tremendously busy, there was no way out for her unless she came past the buffet table, and the people at tables near her had already seen her, acknowledged her presence and gone back to enjoying their lunch. I had zero fear of her having a problem, even when the waitress went over and put water glasses on the table. Khana is an amazingly calm, controlled, sensible dog. If people thought all chows were like her, they'd be switching to chows for service dogs! *L*

I'm cautious with my dogs, I love them dearly and I would be devastated if something happened to them. But I'm also confident in the training that I've given them and how they can handle situations in public. Very little stresses Khana. She's becoming more and more settled into her role as SD every day, and is just wonderful. I was at the public assistance office today and everyone was raving about her - she laid there quietly during my entire meeting, with people stepping over her and around her to get things. Her eyes were on me most of the time.

IntuitDog - I once trained with someone who lost their dog on an isolated dirt back road here in Alaska, same way .. someone came up, opened up the door, called the dog in and drove away while she was chasing the vehicle down the road trying to stop it. She never saw her dog again (a lab). I am really aware of that especially with Khana, because she's so cute and so loving that I have no doubt someone would be tempted to pick her up. But in a business setting such as the one I described, there was no possibility of getting her out unless they went past me - and to heck with my disability, I'll be a mad rabid dog if someone tries to steal my girl! *L* I'll hurt later, but at the time the adrenalin would kick in and there'd be a fight going on.

Lea, I LIKE the idea of "significant dog" .. *LOL* .. she IS significant to me. Too bad that we can't take well-behaved dogs anywhere we like, regardless of whether they're service dogs or not. If you have a dog that is non-reactive, doesn't pull you around, responds well to sit/down/stay/leave it - heck, your dog would have more manners than most kids taken into stores!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[TerriJ]

The comments are great and remind me again about how many service dogs there are and the many different jobs they do for us that are unable. My WGSD is also my SD that is used for balance and mobility and helps me control my panic attacks. I use a short leash with a handle that I lay over her special harness when I need to pick through produce or go through the checkout. Havana was also trained by myself and she knows where she should be at what times, to back up, turn left or right or stand to support me so I may reach for large articles without falling on my face. She goes under a table at a resteraunt so far that people forget she is there and most people in this large town know and admire her from afar.
I too love her dearly and her stays are bomb proof so if I had to I could leave her though it never has occurred.
I found out the other day that protecting her from the crazies out there was something that only I could do for her. While shopping one night I felt Havana getting a little to tight to my side and when I looked up there was this strange dude with those new hearing things stuck in both ears and as he passed us he made it a point to rub up close to her. As he came by a second time, he reached out to snag her harness but I moved her away and asked him to leave her alone so that she could do her job. This guy just grinned and walked away. A few minutes later here he comes again after apparently following us. I had to take my stuff and leave before I was done because I was getting stressed and I knew this was not good for Havana. She kept looking at me to try to understand and I felt unable to help her with this. I thank God that she too has learned to be steady even when she doesn't understand some things and after this episode I bought a traffic lead so she will be firmly attached to me no matter what is going on. You just don't know what others may do to your dog just to make a stink.
Sorry if this got a little long, I just needed to vent and I truly don't know if I could have done something different to avoid this.

[BJDimock]

Melanie,
As a Fidelco foster, I know that we teach our dogs to sit stay and down stay, even when we're out of sight. I don't know if this is ever used by the dogs handlers, but I do know that when my pup is given the command, there isn't a treat, friendly voice, or pull on the collar that will break them from listening for my voice and recall command. When my dogs think they're working, you could put a turkey dinner in front of them and they would ignore it. It is something we condition them to do. Even on happy outings, my foster pups don't generally accept treats, minus Ilan, who has been out of the program for a few years!
If you are comfortable with your dogs training and sensibility, then I don't see a problem. My dogs would throw a bloody fit if someone tried to take them and I would certainly realize what was happening before they could get 10 feet.
Dogs who are "On Duty" are certainly different to very loyal, loving house companions. My pit mix, who is very well behaved and listens great off leash, would certainly jump in a car with the first stranger she met!
Jess

[IliamnasQuest]

Thanks, Jess. Glad to hear others train this way. I am lucky to live in a small town where people are really accepting of dogs and I've never had ANY problem with "crazies" - and most people ask before trying to pet my dogs (even the kids are pretty good at asking). I'm sure that leaving a dog on a stay while you are out of sight is something that has to be taken situation by situation.

Terri - wow, I'd have been nervous too! What a strange person. And with Havana feeling your stress, it had to be hard on her too. I'll never understand why some people want to upset others, especially when it comes to physically touching/accosting.

I appreciate all the posts. I just wasn't sure if there was actually a SD etiquette that we should all follow (I hadn't seen any anywhere, but figured I could always ask here!). I will continue to do what I feel comfortable with and deal with situations as they occur. I just hope I don't run into any of the crazies!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[ILGHAUS]

In most situations I would say have a human stay at the table but there are always exceptions to any rule.