Color genetics

scannergirl · 05-03-2008, 01:23 PM

I think I understand this, but somebody PLEASE set me straight if I'm wrong.
Lucy is a sable, and both her parents are as well. In her litter there was at least one black and tan, which tells me that her parents are heterozygous for sable, because if even one was homozygous the only possibility would be sable. If one parent's other gene was for black and tan, and the other parent's other gene was for black, Lucy could either be genetically sable/sable, sable/black and tan, or sable/black.
So even though there have not been any black puppies from Lucy's parents, that doesn't tell me anything because it would never express itself with these two dogs, right?
It's enough to make your head spin a little.

Catu · 05-03-2008, 02:00 PM

I may be wrong, but if both parents were heterozygous for Sable/Black-tan, wich should be to have a black-tan pup, then there is no Black gen, as the genes have to come in pairs, then Lucy couldn't be sable/black.

That would be if Sable, black and tan and black use the same locus, wich I'm not completely sure. I know it happens with the sable and the black and tan, but I'm not as much sure about solid black and bicolor. I know for sure white does NOT use the same locus.

BlackGSD · 05-03-2008, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted By: LicanAntaiI may be wrong, but if both parents were heterozygous for Sable/Black-tan, wich should be to have a black-tan pup, then there is no Black gen, as the genes have to come in pairs, then Lucy couldn't be sable/black.

But you can have a black and tan that also carries the gene for solid black. So the black and tan pup could have gotten a black and tan gene from one parent and a solid black gene from the other couldn't it? My black female has a solid black sire and a black and tan dam. So she ovbiously had to have gotten a solid black gene from EACH parent. Otherwise she would have been black and tan.

BlackGSD · 05-03-2008, 03:15 PM

What colors are Lucys grandparents?

Catu · 05-03-2008, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted By: BlackGSD

But you can have a black and tan that also carries the gene for solid black. So the black and tan pup could have gotten a black and tan gene from one parent and a solid black gene from the other couldn't it? My black female has a solid black sire and a black and tan dam. So she ovbiously had to have gotten a solid black gene from EACH parent. Otherwise she would have been black and tan.

Interesting!!

Then we could say the genetic hierarchy would be, at least for this genes, sable - black and tan - black? all in the same locus?

I love to learn of genetics and this study cases are more fun than plain theory.

(BTW, I had a groenandel belgian/GSD mix that is all black, along with all her littermates, but I don't know if genetics play the same game in other breeds)

scannergirl · 05-03-2008, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted By: BlackGSDWhat colors are Lucys grandparents?

Lucy's grandparents are all sable, but there are a few black dogs on her sire's side a few generations back. Interestingly I don't see any black and tans.
I guess the only for sure thing if I breed her is I won't get white!
Lucy's pedigree
I just finished getting her in the database- I had to register both her parents as well. I'm usually not that tech savvy

**JKlatsky** · 05-03-2008, 04:21 PM

That sounds right to me.

If even one of her parents was homozygous Sable, all the pups would be sable. So if there was a black and tan pup, at least one parent must be carrying black and tan, but you are right. The other parent could be carrying bi color or black. A pup that had the genotype black and tan/black would show as the phenotype black and tan. So yes, you've pretty well mapped out the possibilities for her color inheritance.

And I believe the color inheritance/dominance is sable, black and tan, bi color, and then black.

mkennels · 05-03-2008, 04:26 PM

I have a black/red female that parents is black/tan and solid black, I bred her to my black/tan male that both parents is black/tans (but within 3 gens there is one black) and out of a litter of 9 pups I have black/reds, black/tans and one solid black pup

BlackGSD · 05-03-2008, 04:29 PM

If you look back in the pedigree of her granddam: Hanni vom Guzzi-Stall, there are several black and tans. There are other black and tans farther back in her pedigree back thru other dogs also.

scannergirl · 05-03-2008, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted By: BlackGSDIf you look back in the pedigree of her granddam: Hanni vom Guzzi-Stall, there are several black and tans. There are other black and tans farther back in her pedigree back thru other dogs also.

I see a few, now that you mention it.
Somebody tell me- what's the difference between a bicolor and a black and tan?

05-03-2008, 01:23 PM	#1 (permalink)
scannergirl Knighted Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Outer Banks, NC Posts: 2,255	Color genetics I think I understand this, but somebody PLEASE set me straight if I'm wrong. Lucy is a sable, and both her parents are as well. In her litter there was at least one black and tan, which tells me that her parents are heterozygous for sable, because if even one was homozygous the only possibility would be sable. If one parent's other gene was for black and tan, and the other parent's other gene was for black, Lucy could either be genetically sable/sable, sable/black and tan, or sable/black. So even though there have not been any black puppies from Lucy's parents, that doesn't tell me anything because it would never express itself with these two dogs, right? It's enough to make your head spin a little. __________________ Lisa Owned by: Lucina v Dare, GSD Fancy Me Deuce (Tedy) APHA gelding Purple Haze Nirvana AQHA mare Trooper rescue kitty and senior fur kid

05-03-2008, 02:00 PM	#2 (permalink)
Catu Crowned Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Valdivia, Chile Posts: 4,269	Re: Color genetics I may be wrong, but if both parents were heterozygous for Sable/Black-tan, wich should be to have a black-tan pup, then there is no Black gen, as the genes have to come in pairs, then Lucy couldn't be sable/black. That would be if Sable, black and tan and black use the same locus, wich I'm not completely sure. I know it happens with the sable and the black and tan, but I'm not as much sure about solid black and bicolor. I know for sure white does NOT use the same locus. __________________ "The dog does not need to be deranked so much as the people need to learn to act like people worth listening to" Suzanne Clothier. Diabla, my Daemon; SchH A, RH-T A Akela, my Direwolf; Work in Progress Bagheera, Long term puppy host

05-03-2008, 03:15 PM	#4 (permalink)
BlackGSD Crowned Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 7,795	Re: Color genetics What colors are Lucys grandparents? __________________ Tracy Siren vom Banach { Sable female GSD 3-20-08} R.I.P. Wrangler male ACD/Aussie mix. 9-29-99 to8-29-11.

05-03-2008, 04:21 PM	#7 (permalink)
JKlatsky Moderator Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Riverview, FL Posts: 2,985	Re: Color genetics That sounds right to me. If even one of her parents was homozygous Sable, all the pups would be sable. So if there was a black and tan pup, at least one parent must be carrying black and tan, but you are right. The other parent could be carrying bi color or black. A pup that had the genotype black and tan/black would show as the phenotype black and tan. So yes, you've pretty well mapped out the possibilities for her color inheritance. And I believe the color inheritance/dominance is sable, black and tan, bi color, and then black. __________________ Argos vom Eisernen Loewen VPG1, CGC, TC 3-3-07 Bianka vom Eisernen Loewen BH, CGC, TC 1-3-08 Cade vom Eisernen Loewen CGC 3-25-09 D'Artagnan (Tag) vom Eisernen Loewen 2-2-10 G Aiko von Burkndeiros SchH 3, IPO3, FH, TC, KKL2 9-17-02

05-03-2008, 04:26 PM	#8 (permalink)
mkennels Master Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Virginia Posts: 932	Re: Color genetics I have a black/red female that parents is black/tan and solid black, I bred her to my black/tan male that both parents is black/tans (but within 3 gens there is one black) and out of a litter of 9 pups I have black/reds, black/tans and one solid black pup __________________ Janet UKC CH Mystical Talyn D'Argo, TT, OFA H/E, CERF, AKC DNA UKC CH Gretchen Julika Little Star, TT, OFA, Cerf, AKC DNA Von Hornberger's Mystical Knight, TT, CERF, AKC DNA, OFA Ranita's Heavenly Angel R.I.P 9/15/07-10/15/08 http://www.mysticalkennels.com

05-03-2008, 04:29 PM	#9 (permalink)
BlackGSD Crowned Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 7,795	Re: Color genetics If you look back in the pedigree of her granddam: Hanni vom Guzzi-Stall, there are several black and tans. There are other black and tans farther back in her pedigree back thru other dogs also. __________________ Tracy Siren vom Banach { Sable female GSD 3-20-08} R.I.P. Wrangler male ACD/Aussie mix. 9-29-99 to8-29-11.

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