Genetics of Fear.... "Experts", please chime in: - Page 3 - German Shepherd Dog Forums

Increase font size: 0, 10, 25, 50%

GermanShepherds.com is the premier German Shepherd Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 12-17-2012, 10:49 PM   #21 (permalink)
Knighted Member
 
RocketDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 2,725
Default

Yes I agree with the NILIF. However, regardless of the fact that she is a GREAT person, she is a pet owner who doesn't think that all pets need to be obedience trained the way we tend to do here on the forum. Sassy does have good recall (as far as I've seen) and she is a dog that doesn't tend to leave her side, so this is good enough for my friend.

She may view this thread, so I hope I don't get into hot water here, but she does tend to humanize her animals.

I have suggested training (as in classes, private, etc) many times to her, but I doubt this will happen. I have loaned her my Turid Rugaas books, my Patricia McConnell books, my Ian Dunbar, my canine behavior photography books....etc but she didn't read them.

The thing is, last night I was at a wonderful party with her, and poor Sassy (there was about 7 of us in the house besides her and her dad, and we all are very familiar to Sassy) peed several times when we first got there, without anyone even petting her. She puts her head down like she's very afraid, even though I squatted down, let her come to me, didn't look at her (I looked sideways), just let her sniff my hand, made my kids walk in an arc.....towards the very end of the evening, she did play tug with my 14 year old daughter. My friend and I had a conversation about her being fearful, and she's convinced it's not genetic, it's because she was in a rescue and possibly abused before she got her. I said I thought after 4 years of loving (and spoiling) I thought it was more genetic, then she brought up that with her understanding of genetics she didn't feel that at all.



Heh! You were both posting while I was typing (and managing my own pup!)
__________________
~Elrond's Rocket of Rivendell, aka The RocketDog
06/15/11
hiker and runner extraordinaire






http://redheadsrocketsandramblings.blogspot.com/
RocketDog is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 12-17-2012, 11:07 PM   #22 (permalink)
Knighted Member
 
RocketDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 2,725
Default

Also, I should note that I've known her longer than she's had this dog, so the dog has "known" me for the 4 years.
__________________
~Elrond's Rocket of Rivendell, aka The RocketDog
06/15/11
hiker and runner extraordinaire






http://redheadsrocketsandramblings.blogspot.com/
RocketDog is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-18-2012, 06:36 AM   #23 (permalink)
Crowned Member
 
cliffson1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,278
Default

@Lies....Thank You, ThankYou, Thank You!....very good explanation in your initial post. Succinct and to the point. There are no absolutes to any situation, but I have found your explanation to be consistent over many many years.
cliffson1 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-18-2012, 08:50 AM   #24 (permalink)
Crowned Member
 
arycrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 9,453
Default

I only have personal experience to share ... I've had two dogs over the years who may be an example of what you're asking.

Yukon had been severly abused before his breeder got him back and I ended up with him (long story). Despite the beatings, being shot with a bb gun, tied to a tree during a Manitoba winter, and finally being abandoned, after he joined my family he regained his confidence rather quickly where nothing bothered him that wouldn't bother a normal dog. Yukon earned a CD, HIC, CGC and TT titles.

On the other had I had another dog who I feel had heriditary shyness ... his father was also shy, both had fear type aggression, everything scared them. It took hundreds of hours of all types of training and exposure to many different situations to get Echo to act like a "normal" dog. I'm proud to say Echo earned CDX, HIC, and CGC titles and was confident enough that people thought I was kidding when I related what we had to do go thru to get him to that point.
__________________
Gayle ... Slider, Bruiser, Faith & Ledgie
At the Bridge: Andy, Abbey, Tasha, Tex, Echo, Yukon, JR, Too, Niki, Bo, Ringer, Kelly, Honey & Mac
arycrest is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-18-2012, 09:01 AM   #25 (permalink)
Crowned Member
 
Catu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Valdivia, Chile
Posts: 4,740
Default

This may not help the OP, but within the context of this thread this article may interest to those who like a scientific approach. Here there is the heredability to many behavioral traits.

http://www.vetsuisse.unibe.ch/unibe/...enacht_ger.pdf
__________________
Diabla, my Daemon; SchH A, RH-T A
Akela, my Direwolf; IPO-1, Kkl1
Kavik, the Wolfdog pup
Catu's Pack
Catu is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-18-2012, 09:02 AM   #26 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 18,336
Default

I guess I would ask your friend....what does she want? What is her goal for the dog? If she wants the dog to act differently than she does now, then she will have to be willing to make some changes in how the dog is managed. If she's not willing to do that, then I don't know what else to say. Your original post made me think that your friend thinks she can change the dog's behaviors and reactions (if they are not genetic) but if she is not doing any training, NILIF, reading your books, etc then I don't get how she expects the dog to change? If she does not agree that the dog might just be shy and soft genetically, then why is she not proving her theory by changing her dog into a more confident dog? You can't on one hand blame a dog's weakness on how it was originally raised and then on the other hand not agree that if it is not genetics at play the dog cannot be trained and socialized to be a more confident dog....see what I'm saying? It just sounds like an excuse, blaming the dog's past but being unwilling to help shape the dog's future.... You know how *I* feel about the role of genetics but like I said originally, there's usually a lot of "room" on a dog's genetic spectrum for the owner to train and socialize what behavior they want and the things that cannot be changed can at least be managed so that the impact on the dog is minimal (ie, not having the dog in a situation where it feels overwhelmed and pees several times, for starters).
__________________
Coke (All-American 7/7/06)
Nikon (GSD 9/7/08)
Indy (All-American 5/10/12)
Legend (GSD 10/22/13)
Rainbow Bridge Kenya (GSD)


Last edited by Liesje; 12-18-2012 at 09:05 AM.
Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-18-2012, 09:40 AM   #27 (permalink)
The Rescues Rule Administrator
 
JeanKBBMMMAAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 23,654
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
I guess I would ask your friend....what does she want? What is her goal for the dog? If she wants the dog to act differently than she does now, then she will have to be willing to make some changes in how the dog is managed. If she's not willing to do that, then I don't know what else to say. Your original post made me think that your friend thinks she can change the dog's behaviors and reactions (if they are not genetic) but if she is not doing any training, NILIF, reading your books, etc then I don't get how she expects the dog to change? If she does not agree that the dog might just be shy and soft genetically, then why is she not proving her theory by changing her dog into a more confident dog? You can't on one hand blame a dog's weakness on how it was originally raised and then on the other hand not agree that if it is not genetics at play the dog cannot be trained and socialized to be a more confident dog....see what I'm saying? It just sounds like an excuse, blaming the dog's past but being unwilling to help shape the dog's future.... You know how *I* feel about the role of genetics but like I said originally, there's usually a lot of "room" on a dog's genetic spectrum for the owner to train and socialize what behavior they want and the things that cannot be changed can at least be managed so that the impact on the dog is minimal (ie, not having the dog in a situation where it feels overwhelmed and pees several times, for starters).
Yes - all of this! I realized I was struggling in responding because I am not sure what is the desired outcome here?

If she learns that dogs can be genetically fearful, will she then commit to good training and management for the dog? If so, will she go to a place like the Yahoo shy k9 group and read the archives?

If not, let's go with the abuse thing and get her hooked in to the Yahoo sky k9 group and read the archives? Because that is the thing - no matter the cause, what you do is what will either make the dog feel better or worse.
__________________
IMOM is...
JeanKBBMMMAAN is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-18-2012, 01:53 PM   #28 (permalink)
Crowned Member
 
Freestep's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northern California
Posts: 6,095
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
Also I think the "abuse" card becomes like an excuse.
If I had a nickel for every person who thinks their dog was "abused", I could retire. Many of my clients have "second-hand" dogs, and any show of fearful, nervous, submissive, or aggressive behavior is chalked up to "abuse", and therefore excused (or even coddled). Drives me crazy.
Freestep is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-18-2012, 02:09 PM   #29 (permalink)
Knighted Member
 
RocketDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 2,725
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
I guess I would ask your friend....what does she want? What is her goal for the dog? If she wants the dog to act differently than she does now, then she will have to be willing to make some changes in how the dog is managed. If she's not willing to do that, then I don't know what else to say. Your original post made me think that your friend thinks she can change the dog's behaviors and reactions (if they are not genetic) but if she is not doing any training, NILIF, reading your books, etc then I don't get how she expects the dog to change? If she does not agree that the dog might just be shy and soft genetically, then why is she not proving her theory by changing her dog into a more confident dog? You can't on one hand blame a dog's weakness on how it was originally raised and then on the other hand not agree that if it is not genetics at play the dog cannot be trained and socialized to be a more confident dog....see what I'm saying? It just sounds like an excuse, blaming the dog's past but being unwilling to help shape the dog's future.... You know how *I* feel about the role of genetics but like I said originally, there's usually a lot of "room" on a dog's genetic spectrum for the owner to train and socialize what behavior they want and the things that cannot be changed can at least be managed so that the impact on the dog is minimal (ie, not having the dog in a situation where it feels overwhelmed and pees several times, for starters).
I'm not sure how she acts bothers my friend. Personally, I think I would at least try to manage the submissive peeing, but she is used to cleaning that up, and that's her prerogative.

My only worry myself is, the two of us like to hike together and Sassy will try to bite Rocket if he's too close. He is very even-tempered and has responded extremely well, but it's stressful for me obviously to try to manage it, which means we possibly can't hike them together anymore.
__________________
~Elrond's Rocket of Rivendell, aka The RocketDog
06/15/11
hiker and runner extraordinaire






http://redheadsrocketsandramblings.blogspot.com/
RocketDog is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-18-2012, 02:41 PM   #30 (permalink)
Crowned Member
 
onyx'girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SW, MI
Posts: 23,985
Default

Look at how many dogs in shelters/rescue have been abused or neglected....and they are absolutely normal and loyal to whoever....that is genetics at its finest.
__________________
Jane~
Kept by Onyx, Kacie and Karlo
onyx'girl is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:11 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.3.2
PetGuide.com
Basset.net DobermanTalk.com GoldenRetrieverForum.com OurBeagleWorld.com
BoxerForums.com DogForums.com GoPitbull.com PoodleForum.com
BulldogBreeds.com FishForums.com HavaneseForum.com SpoiledMaltese.com
CatForum.com GermanShepherds.com Labradoodle-dogs.net YorkieForum.com
Chihuahua-People.com RetrieverBreeds.com