Genetics of Fear.... "Experts", please chime in:

[RocketDog]

Yes I agree with the NILIF. However, regardless of the fact that she is a GREAT person, she is a pet owner who doesn't think that all pets need to be obedience trained the way we tend to do here on the forum. Sassy does have good recall (as far as I've seen) and she is a dog that doesn't tend to leave her side, so this is good enough for my friend.

She may view this thread, so I hope I don't get into hot water here, but she does tend to humanize her animals.

I have suggested training (as in classes, private, etc) many times to her, but I doubt this will happen. I have loaned her my Turid Rugaas books, my Patricia McConnell books, my Ian Dunbar, my canine behavior photography books....etc but she didn't read them.

The thing is, last night I was at a wonderful party with her, and poor Sassy (there was about 7 of us in the house besides her and her dad, and we all are very familiar to Sassy) peed several times when we first got there, without anyone even petting her. She puts her head down like she's very afraid, even though I squatted down, let her come to me, didn't look at her (I looked sideways), just let her sniff my hand, made my kids walk in an arc.....towards the very end of the evening, she did play tug with my 14 year old daughter. My friend and I had a conversation about her being fearful, and she's convinced it's not genetic, it's because she was in a rescue and possibly abused before she got her. I said I thought after 4 years of loving (and spoiling) I thought it was more genetic, then she brought up that with her understanding of genetics she didn't feel that at all.



Heh! You were both posting while I was typing (and managing my own pup!)

[RocketDog]

Also, I should note that I've known her longer than she's had this dog, so the dog has "known" me for the 4 years.

[cliffson1]

@Lies....Thank You, ThankYou, Thank You!....very good explanation in your initial post. Succinct and to the point. There are no absolutes to any situation, but I have found your explanation to be consistent over many many years.

[arycrest]

I only have personal experience to share ... I've had two dogs over the years who may be an example of what you're asking.

Yukon had been severly abused before his breeder got him back and I ended up with him (long story). Despite the beatings, being shot with a bb gun, tied to a tree during a Manitoba winter, and finally being abandoned, after he joined my family he regained his confidence rather quickly where nothing bothered him that wouldn't bother a normal dog. Yukon earned a CD, HIC, CGC and TT titles.

On the other had I had another dog who I feel had heriditary shyness ... his father was also shy, both had fear type aggression, everything scared them. It took hundreds of hours of all types of training and exposure to many different situations to get Echo to act like a "normal" dog. I'm proud to say Echo earned CDX, HIC, and CGC titles and was confident enough that people thought I was kidding when I related what we had to do go thru to get him to that point.

[Catu]

This may not help the OP, but within the context of this thread this article may interest to those who like a scientific approach. Here there is the heredability to many behavioral traits.

http://www.vetsuisse.unibe.ch/unibe/...enacht_ger.pdf

[Liesje]

I guess I would ask your friend....what does she want? What is her goal for the dog? If she wants the dog to act differently than she does now, then she will have to be willing to make some changes in how the dog is managed. If she's not willing to do that, then I don't know what else to say. Your original post made me think that your friend thinks she can change the dog's behaviors and reactions (if they are not genetic) but if she is not doing any training, NILIF, reading your books, etc then I don't get how she expects the dog to change? If she does not agree that the dog might just be shy and soft genetically, then why is she not proving her theory by changing her dog into a more confident dog? You can't on one hand blame a dog's weakness on how it was originally raised and then on the other hand not agree that if it is not genetics at play the dog cannot be trained and socialized to be a more confident dog....see what I'm saying? It just sounds like an excuse, blaming the dog's past but being unwilling to help shape the dog's future.... You know how *I* feel about the role of genetics but like I said originally, there's usually a lot of "room" on a dog's genetic spectrum for the owner to train and socialize what behavior they want and the things that cannot be changed can at least be managed so that the impact on the dog is minimal (ie, not having the dog in a situation where it feels overwhelmed and pees several times, for starters).

[JeanKBBMMMAAN]

Originally Posted by Liesje

I guess I would ask your friend....what does she want? What is her goal for the dog? If she wants the dog to act differently than she does now, then she will have to be willing to make some changes in how the dog is managed. If she's not willing to do that, then I don't know what else to say. Your original post made me think that your friend thinks she can change the dog's behaviors and reactions (if they are not genetic) but if she is not doing any training, NILIF, reading your books, etc then I don't get how she expects the dog to change? If she does not agree that the dog might just be shy and soft genetically, then why is she not proving her theory by changing her dog into a more confident dog? You can't on one hand blame a dog's weakness on how it was originally raised and then on the other hand not agree that if it is not genetics at play the dog cannot be trained and socialized to be a more confident dog....see what I'm saying? It just sounds like an excuse, blaming the dog's past but being unwilling to help shape the dog's future.... You know how *I* feel about the role of genetics but like I said originally, there's usually a lot of "room" on a dog's genetic spectrum for the owner to train and socialize what behavior they want and the things that cannot be changed can at least be managed so that the impact on the dog is minimal (ie, not having the dog in a situation where it feels overwhelmed and pees several times, for starters).

Yes - all of this! I realized I was struggling in responding because I am not sure what is the desired outcome here?

If she learns that dogs can be genetically fearful, will she then commit to good training and management for the dog? If so, will she go to a place like the Yahoo shy k9 group and read the archives?

If not, let's go with the abuse thing and get her hooked in to the Yahoo sky k9 group and read the archives? Because that is the thing - no matter the cause, what you do is what will either make the dog feel better or worse.

[Freestep]

Originally Posted by Liesje

Also I think the "abuse" card becomes like an excuse.

If I had a nickel for every person who thinks their dog was "abused", I could retire. Many of my clients have "second-hand" dogs, and any show of fearful, nervous, submissive, or aggressive behavior is chalked up to "abuse", and therefore excused (or even coddled). Drives me crazy.

[RocketDog]

Originally Posted by Liesje

I guess I would ask your friend....what does she want? What is her goal for the dog? If she wants the dog to act differently than she does now, then she will have to be willing to make some changes in how the dog is managed. If she's not willing to do that, then I don't know what else to say. Your original post made me think that your friend thinks she can change the dog's behaviors and reactions (if they are not genetic) but if she is not doing any training, NILIF, reading your books, etc then I don't get how she expects the dog to change? If she does not agree that the dog might just be shy and soft genetically, then why is she not proving her theory by changing her dog into a more confident dog? You can't on one hand blame a dog's weakness on how it was originally raised and then on the other hand not agree that if it is not genetics at play the dog cannot be trained and socialized to be a more confident dog....see what I'm saying? It just sounds like an excuse, blaming the dog's past but being unwilling to help shape the dog's future.... You know how *I* feel about the role of genetics but like I said originally, there's usually a lot of "room" on a dog's genetic spectrum for the owner to train and socialize what behavior they want and the things that cannot be changed can at least be managed so that the impact on the dog is minimal (ie, not having the dog in a situation where it feels overwhelmed and pees several times, for starters).

I'm not sure how she acts bothers my friend. Personally, I think I would at least try to manage the submissive peeing, but she is used to cleaning that up, and that's her prerogative.

My only worry myself is, the two of us like to hike together and Sassy will try to bite Rocket if he's too close. He is very even-tempered and has responded extremely well, but it's stressful for me obviously to try to manage it, which means we possibly can't hike them together anymore.

[onyx'girl]

Look at how many dogs in shelters/rescue have been abused or neglected....and they are absolutely normal and loyal to whoever....that is genetics at its finest.