Not really an "issue" but a question about genetics?

tjtoot · 12-09-2012, 09:49 PM

I was just curious about some genetic combos. I love long hair german shepherds, and Id love to see a long hair white german shepherd, but Ive never seen one with long hair. Is it genetically possible? Also curious on the genetics for liver and cream, black and silver, and white. I know these are frowned upon, but just curious. Also, is there more than one type of long hair? Do any of these combinations have health problems?

4TheDawgies · 12-09-2012, 09:57 PM

It's definitely possible. It's a shame the only ones I've met we're super nervous and simply bred for color.

tjtoot · 12-09-2012, 10:11 PM

Interested. is white reccessive?

Whiteshepherds · 12-10-2012, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjtoot

Interested. is white reccessive?

Yes, white is recessive and so is the longstock coat.

If you want to see more pictures than you'll have time to look at, type in Berger Blanc Suisse in a search engine. Most of them are longstocks.

qbchottu · 12-10-2012, 12:51 AM

White LC: https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=1264336
https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=1264566
Certainly possible

Liver, cream, silver, white are all faults. You won't see breeders that do it right breeding for those colors. Cream, silver and faded versions of white are all pigment faults. There is little pigment so the color is faded and appears unique. Liver and blue dilution are major recessives that are rare, but there are some "breeders" that breed for these faults because they are unique and flashy - easy gimmick. These colors should not be selectively bred for and color should be far from the chief motive of your breeding program. Genetic pool is very small and restricted - problematic.

Threads on the matter:
Blues/Livers
Liver GSDs?
Liver sable/silver black pairing
About liver/Liver Sables

Whiteshepherds · 12-10-2012, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qbchottu

You won't see breeders that do it right breeding for those colors.

More longstock whites, apparently doing it all wrong

but they take real pretty pictures.

4xHIT, 2xTotal Dog, UCH, UCDX, RO3, SureFire Victorious Joy Estel CD, RN, PT, HIC (d)

17xHIT, 2xTotal Dog, RBIMBS, BPISS, UCH, UCDX, UROC, Regalwise Victorious Faith CDX, RE, PT, HIC (d&s)

Victorious White german shepherds

The dog in my avatar btw is a white longstock and her nerves are fine.

qbchottu · 12-10-2012, 03:52 AM

The exception is not the rule so I'm not sure what point you are making. If a certain rare color, fault, or exception is to your liking, that's your prerogative. But you won't see me endorsing or agreeing with it. How does the saying go...different strokes for different folks

**jocoyn** · 12-10-2012, 06:02 AM

I think the *issue* with breeding for recessives is that you have to have additional inbreeding because you need two copies of a recessive gene to have it expressed. Just the fact that a dog is from a breed already means some amount of inbreeding has occurred already.

Inbreeding increases the chance that genetic disease may occur because many diseases are carried on recessive genes and are more likely to have two copies with inbreeding. So breeding for ANY color is likely to increase the chances of that happening. The more "rare" the color the more inbreeding would have to happen to predictably produce a dog with that color. The color itself is not a health defect that I know of in the GSD (other than the dog may not meet a standard).

Though sometimes odd colors and longcoats can pop up in a litter where, because it is uncommon, it is just a random ocurrence in dogs who are not inbred--I *think* that is why folks recommend going with someone who breeds to the standard and giving your preference for a desired coat or color if it pops up.

cliffson1 · 12-10-2012, 08:18 AM

Anyone that breeds for colors in this breed is missing the big picture, regardless of the color. The breed needs all the standard color patterns to be used and mixed to keep the breed strong and versatile.....any exclusive color breeding pattern is irresponsible in the long run.

Doc · 12-10-2012, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cliffson1

Anyone that breeds for colors in this breed is missing the big picture, regardless of the color. The breed needs all the standard color patterns to be used and mixed to keep the breed strong and versatile.....any exclusive color breeding pattern is irresponsible in the long run.

And that includes breeding red and black show lines, right Cliff? Lol.

12-09-2012, 09:49 PM	#1 (permalink)
tjtoot New Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 7	Not really an "issue" but a question about genetics? I was just curious about some genetic combos. I love long hair german shepherds, and Id love to see a long hair white german shepherd, but Ive never seen one with long hair. Is it genetically possible? Also curious on the genetics for liver and cream, black and silver, and white. I know these are frowned upon, but just curious. Also, is there more than one type of long hair? Do any of these combinations have health problems?

12-09-2012, 09:57 PM	#2 (permalink)
4TheDawgies Master Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: KS Posts: 996	It's definitely possible. It's a shame the only ones I've met we're super nervous and simply bred for color. __________________ "For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours they move finished and complete, gifted with extensions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear."

12-10-2012, 06:02 AM	#8 (permalink)
jocoyn Zombie Queen Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Carolina Posts: 11,830	I think the issue with breeding for recessives is that you have to have additional inbreeding because you need two copies of a recessive gene to have it expressed. Just the fact that a dog is from a breed already means some amount of inbreeding has occurred already. Inbreeding increases the chance that genetic disease may occur because many diseases are carried on recessive genes and are more likely to have two copies with inbreeding. So breeding for ANY color is likely to increase the chances of that happening. The more "rare" the color the more inbreeding would have to happen to predictably produce a dog with that color. The color itself is not a health defect that I know of in the GSD (other than the dog may not meet a standard). Though sometimes odd colors and longcoats can pop up in a litter where, because it is uncommon, it is just a random ocurrence in dogs who are not inbred--I think that is why folks recommend going with someone who breeds to the standard and giving your preference for a desired coat or color if it pops up. __________________ Nancy www.scsarda.org Beau -NAPWDA Certified Cadaver Dog Waiting at the Bridge (italics=GSDs) (hemangiosarcoma=blue):Grim , Cyra, Toby, Rainbow, Linus, Oscar, Arlo & Waggles

12-09-2012, 10:11 PM	#3 (permalink)
tjtoot New Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 7	Interested. is white reccessive?

12-10-2012, 12:51 AM	#5 (permalink)
qbchottu Knighted Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,713	White LC: https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=1264336 https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=1264566 Certainly possible Liver, cream, silver, white are all faults. You won't see breeders that do it right breeding for those colors. Cream, silver and faded versions of white are all pigment faults. There is little pigment so the color is faded and appears unique. Liver and blue dilution are major recessives that are rare, but there are some "breeders" that breed for these faults because they are unique and flashy - easy gimmick. These colors should not be selectively bred for and color should be far from the chief motive of your breeding program. Genetic pool is very small and restricted - problematic. Threads on the matter: Blues/Livers Liver GSDs? Liver sable/silver black pairing About liver/Liver Sables

12-10-2012, 03:52 AM	#7 (permalink)
qbchottu Knighted Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,713	The exception is not the rule so I'm not sure what point you are making. If a certain rare color, fault, or exception is to your liking, that's your prerogative. But you won't see me endorsing or agreeing with it. How does the saying go...different strokes for different folks

12-10-2012, 08:18 AM	#9 (permalink)
cliffson1 Crowned Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,868	Anyone that breeds for colors in this breed is missing the big picture, regardless of the color. The breed needs all the standard color patterns to be used and mixed to keep the breed strong and versatile.....any exclusive color breeding pattern is irresponsible in the long run.

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