Genetic diversity

[LudusCanis]

First off, greetings to all! This is my introductory post, so be gentle with me! I have been reading many of the topics on the site, mostly concerning Panda's colored German Shepherds.

I am a graduate student in molecular biology at the University of North Texas, and I have a fledgling Kennel. My first female has just went into heat, and I expect her to be bred any day! I have not trained any working dogs or show dogs, but I intend to get involved in that aspect with on of my pup's. His great grandfather was the 98' WUSV chamption Quasy. Does that mean he will be such a great dog? No guarauntee, but he has the potential. And I want all of my dogs to conform to breed standard and to work. After all, thats what they are bred for.

One aspect I have been studying a bit more closely is genetic bottlenecks, and specifically, the Founders effect. Those two issues aside, let me come to the point of my question.

I want to breed a diverse range of shepherds, and include in my bloodlines colors like panda (if I can purchase one), liver, blue, white, etc, NOT for the novelty of getting those colors, but for the sanctity and preservation of the gene pool. Yes, I know some of these colors are considered "Faults" by the AKC, but that does not mean they have bad DNA.

To solely focus on one particular color is just as bad as excluding those same colors from the gene pool. Now of course that means you will have pups that do not meet the "standard." You can always limit the registration of the "faulty" pups and sell them as pets. However, by injecting these into the gene pool frequently, in the long run the genetic health of the breed will be secure and not compromised as it seems to be.

These are just thoughts I am having before I get to deep into all of this. I understand I am looking through the prism of my university education, but things that work in the lab do not always work in reality!

So, here I am, humbble and eager to help this breed. Now that I have stated my thoughts and vision to yoi guys, I am asking what do you think, and what suggestions do you have?

sincerely,

Lonnie Matson

[Stosh]

Welcome, I like the ludus canis name. I predict you'll be getting lots of comments about this subject!

[LudusCanis]

Thank you! I am a Roman enthusiast as well! All my dogs have the name, using my pup as an example, Brutus Magnus ex Ludus Canis. I wanted to be original. And I do hope to get alot of opinions and suggestions. I am here to learn from those with many years of experience, and then couple that with what I know.

[Andaka]

Originally Posted by LudusCanis

First off, greetings to all! This is my introductory post, so be gentle with me! I have been reading many of the topics on the site, mostly concerning Panda's colored German Shepherds.

I am a graduate student in molecular biology at the University of North Texas, and I have a fledgling Kennel. My first female has just went into heat, and I expect her to be bred any day! I have not trained any working dogs or show dogs, but I intend to get involved in that aspect with on of my pup's.
Why are you breeding if you have not done any training with your female or any other dog? How will you know which pups to choose as a working or show prospect?
His great grandfather was the 98' WUSV chamption Quasy. Does that mean he will be such a great dog? No guarauntee, but he has the potential. And I want all of my dogs to conform to breed standard and to work. After all, thats what they are bred for.

One aspect I have been studying a bit more closely is genetic bottlenecks, and specifically, the Founders effect. Those two issues aside, let me come to the point of my question.

I want to breed a diverse range of shepherds, and include in my bloodlines colors like panda (if I can purchase one), liver, blue, white, etc, NOT for the novelty of getting those colors, but for the sanctity and preservation of the gene pool. Yes, I know some of these colors are considered "Faults" by the AKC, but that does not mean they have bad DNA.

They are not just considered "faults" by AKC but also by the SV. Non standard colors have been disqualified by AKC since 1968. There are already three distinct and diverse lines of GSD's. Why do we need more? And for what purpose are you planning to breed these dogs? Livers and blues are only found in the "pet" lines, most of which have not been used for showing or working in many generations.

To solely focus on one particular color is just as bad as excluding those same colors from the gene pool. Now of course that means you will have pups that do not meet the "standard." You can always limit the registration of the "faulty" pups and sell them as pets. However, by injecting these into the gene pool frequently, in the long run the genetic health of the breed will be secure and not compromised as it seems to be.

These are just thoughts I am having before I get to deep into all of this. I understand I am looking through the prism of my university education, but things that work in the lab do not always work in reality!

So, here I am, humbble and eager to help this breed. Now that I have stated my thoughts and vision to yoi guys, I am asking what do you think, and what suggestions do you have?

I would suggest that you get involved in some aspect of dog sports -- schutzhund, conformation, obedience, agility, herding, something before you proceed to tell longtime breeders where they have gone wrong.

sincerely,

Lonnie Matson

Just my opinion.

[Konotashi]

I know of one LC liver female named Galaxy who has two SchH titled parents.

I know of a liver sable male, I believe his name is Draco, who has SchH titled parents. If I remember correctly, his owner is going to get him in SchH and then breed him.

To say that blues and livers are only from 'pet lines' isn't necessarily correct. Sometimes the parents just happen to carry the gene for that color, whether they're from 'pet' lines or dogs that have SchH titles.

[Catu]

An agriculture student said to a farmer: "Your methods are too old fashioned. I won't be surprised if this tree will give you less than twenty pounds of apples."
"I won't be surprised either," said the farmer, "this is an orange tree".



After your long post. Wouldn't it be breeding only by color after all? If you want to get out of the genetic bottleneck, there are other ways, you really need to read more about lines, bloodlines and the history of the GSD. Livers and blues would be the less of my concerns.

[Rei]

Completely agree, Catu!!

I do not have anything against breeding colors considered to be DQs or faults in the conformation ring, but it is the motivation, ethics, and process behind the breeding that matters to me. The argument being made here, in my opinion, would not be justification enough.

Originally Posted by Konotashi

I know of a liver sable male, I believe his name is Draco, who has SchH titled parents. If I remember correctly, his owner is going to get him in SchH and then breed him.

I know of the same male and I would not touch him or his pups with a 30 foot pole.

[Konotashi]

Originally Posted by Rei

Completely agree, Catu!!

I do not have anything against breeding colors considered to be DQs or faults in the conformation ring, but it is the motivation, ethics, and process behind the breeding that matters to me. The argument being made here, in my opinion, would not be justification enough.



I know of the same male and I would not touch him or his pups with a 30 foot pole.

Why is that, just curious?

[Catu]

Have you heard of the "Popular Sire Effect?"

Because I live at the other end of the world and I'm about to receive in a couple of weeks a pup with Quasy in the pedigree.

I don't know of any problems with Quasy, but if your goal is to get away of the genetic bottleneck it should be something to think about.

[JakodaCD OA]

just pointing out you said

And I want all of my dogs to conform to breed standard and to work. After all, thats what they are bred for.

If you want to conform to breed standard, the colors you are suggesting do not conform.

I have no problem with the 'off' colored dogs, however, if they have nothing else to go on, besides color, what would the point be?