Black/B&Tan

crispy · 02-23-2010, 09:17 AM

My friend has a bitch, black with a sable bleed through around neck and legs.. Her parents were.. Dam. Black and Tan.... Sire.White masking sable. In her five generation ped it show colours of.. Blacks, Black and tan, White's masking both sable and black.

The bitch was mated twice before to a white masking sable dog. The first litter produced. Black/sable. Blacks and Sables.

The second litter to the same dog, she produced Blacks. Black/sables and whites.

Her last litter she was put to a black and tan male.
The owner of the stud dog is questioning the parentage. She read in Malcom willis's book, that only one dog need to be a sable to produce a sable but 2 dogs would have to carry the black to produce blacks. The owner is convinced her dog doesn't carry the black. So she questioning where it has come from.

The owner of the stud cannot get her head around the colours that they have produced. which were Black/sable. Black, Sable and Black/Tan.
There was no way another male got to this bitch.
The owner of the bitch is quite prepared for DNA testing. Question.. Do all the pups have to be DNA'd. Or can just the parents and one or two of the pups be DNA'd eg; the sable and the black.

FuryanGoddess · 02-23-2010, 09:32 AM

I would think only one pup would need to be tested.. you can have two different fathers to a littler, can you?

crispy · 02-23-2010, 09:39 AM

Yes you can have 2 different fathers to a litter. And I think this is at the back of the stud dogs owners mind. As the owner of the bitch kept a black son from the first mating. The bitch's owner had him away from her at all times. Under no circumstances did he get to her.

FuryanGoddess · 02-23-2010, 09:44 AM

Hummm... there is this site I find interesting. 4GSD - Coat Colours

Quote:

Example: A Sable dog can be either Homozygous or Heterozygous Sable. This means it either carries 1 or 2 copies of the sable gene. If the Sable dog had, for example, a sable parent and a Saddle Back parent, that dog would carry both of those genes - Sable, and Saddle back. The dog would appear Sable since that is the dominant gene. This dog in turn could produce both Sables and Saddle backs, since he carries both genes.
For a Sable dog to be Homozygous Sable, it would have to have 2 copies of the sable gene. This would mean the dog would have had 2 Sable parents that both passed the sable gene on to it, and also that this dog can ONLY produce sables.

Quote:

The Solid Pattern:

The solid pattern is a recessive gene, meaning it is only expressed when the dog has 2 copies of the gene. Dogs that are sable, black and tan, etc, can carry this gene. Two solid patterned dogs bred together can only produce solid patterned pups. There can be solid blacks, blues, or livers.

crispy · 02-23-2010, 09:52 AM

At first..The Stud own was querying both the sable and the black, she contacted a third person, who has a sable bitch, that the male went to, and they got sables puppies. So now she thinks she understands that..But she querying now the black. Where did that come from...

So hopefully somebody here can help, and then I can show her.

FuryanGoddess · 02-23-2010, 09:55 AM

I hope your friend can get to the bottom of this. Sounds like it could be mess

We have lots of breeders, I'm sure they can figure this out.

crispy · 02-23-2010, 09:57 AM

Thanks

I hope so too....

**JKlatsky** · 02-23-2010, 10:10 AM

Well first of all, is the bitch sable or black? If she produced sable pups and black pups with a black and tan stud, the bitch MUST be sable with black recessive. And yes in order to produce Black puppies the Black and Tan stud must also be black recessive.

How does the Stud Owner know that the Stud does not carry black? Is he's been genetically tested and does not carry the gene for black then there must be another dog in the mix.

If the only other dog of concern is an all black male, the only puppies it could have sired would be the black or the sable puppies. Those would need to be tested for sure. Although (And I could be wrong) I think that when parentage of a litter is contested the whole litter needs to be tested for registration.

**JKlatsky** · 02-23-2010, 10:12 AM

This is also an excellent resource that shows the matrix for color genetics.
Ehret German Shepherds - Canine Genetics

The combo we'd be looking at on this chart would be Sable (aw+a) with Black and Tan (as+a) which would produce sable, black and tan, and black puppies.

crispy · 02-23-2010, 10:18 AM

this is the photo of the mum

she looks black..is registered as black, but when fur is parted you can see the sable, around her knickers and neck.
No the stud dog has not been tested.

02-23-2010, 09:17 AM	#1 (permalink)
crispy Master Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Bath England Posts: 944	Black/B&Tan My friend has a bitch, black with a sable bleed through around neck and legs.. Her parents were.. Dam. Black and Tan.... Sire.White masking sable. In her five generation ped it show colours of.. Blacks, Black and tan, White's masking both sable and black. The bitch was mated twice before to a white masking sable dog. The first litter produced. Black/sable. Blacks and Sables. The second litter to the same dog, she produced Blacks. Black/sables and whites. Her last litter she was put to a black and tan male. The owner of the stud dog is questioning the parentage. She read in Malcom willis's book, that only one dog need to be a sable to produce a sable but 2 dogs would have to carry the black to produce blacks. The owner is convinced her dog doesn't carry the black. So she questioning where it has come from. The owner of the stud cannot get her head around the colours that they have produced. which were Black/sable. Black, Sable and Black/Tan. There was no way another male got to this bitch. The owner of the bitch is quite prepared for DNA testing. Question.. Do all the pups have to be DNA'd. Or can just the parents and one or two of the pups be DNA'd eg; the sable and the black. __________________ crispy & gang

02-23-2010, 09:32 AM	#2 (permalink)
FuryanGoddess Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: PA Posts: 1,298	I would think only one pup would need to be tested.. you can have two different fathers to a littler, can you? __________________ Zeva Female GSD 10/02/2009 http://www.dogster.com/dogs/1090361 Waiting at the Bridge: Buddy ~ GSD/Husky mix 1/00 Sadie ~ GSD 10/05 Lady ~ GSD 5/09 Pepper ~ Beagle 12/09

02-23-2010, 09:39 AM	#3 (permalink)
crispy Master Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Bath England Posts: 944	Yes you can have 2 different fathers to a litter. And I think this is at the back of the stud dogs owners mind. As the owner of the bitch kept a black son from the first mating. The bitch's owner had him away from her at all times. Under no circumstances did he get to her. __________________ crispy & gang

02-23-2010, 09:52 AM	#5 (permalink)
crispy Master Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Bath England Posts: 944	At first..The Stud own was querying both the sable and the black, she contacted a third person, who has a sable bitch, that the male went to, and they got sables puppies. So now she thinks she understands that..But she querying now the black. Where did that come from... So hopefully somebody here can help, and then I can show her. __________________ crispy & gang

02-23-2010, 09:55 AM	#6 (permalink)
FuryanGoddess Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: PA Posts: 1,298	I hope your friend can get to the bottom of this. Sounds like it could be mess We have lots of breeders, I'm sure they can figure this out. __________________ Zeva Female GSD 10/02/2009 http://www.dogster.com/dogs/1090361 Waiting at the Bridge: Buddy ~ GSD/Husky mix 1/00 Sadie ~ GSD 10/05 Lady ~ GSD 5/09 Pepper ~ Beagle 12/09

02-23-2010, 09:57 AM	#7 (permalink)
crispy Master Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Bath England Posts: 944	Thanks I hope so too.... __________________ crispy & gang

02-23-2010, 10:10 AM	#8 (permalink)
JKlatsky Moderator Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Riverview, FL Posts: 2,985	Well first of all, is the bitch sable or black? If she produced sable pups and black pups with a black and tan stud, the bitch MUST be sable with black recessive. And yes in order to produce Black puppies the Black and Tan stud must also be black recessive. How does the Stud Owner know that the Stud does not carry black? Is he's been genetically tested and does not carry the gene for black then there must be another dog in the mix. If the only other dog of concern is an all black male, the only puppies it could have sired would be the black or the sable puppies. Those would need to be tested for sure. Although (And I could be wrong) I think that when parentage of a litter is contested the whole litter needs to be tested for registration. __________________ Argos vom Eisernen Loewen VPG1, CGC, TC 3-3-07 Bianka vom Eisernen Loewen BH, CGC, TC 1-3-08 Cade vom Eisernen Loewen CGC 3-25-09 D'Artagnan (Tag) vom Eisernen Loewen 2-2-10 G Aiko von Burkndeiros SchH 3, IPO3, FH, TC, KKL2 9-17-02

02-23-2010, 10:12 AM	#9 (permalink)
JKlatsky Moderator Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Riverview, FL Posts: 2,985	This is also an excellent resource that shows the matrix for color genetics. Ehret German Shepherds - Canine Genetics The combo we'd be looking at on this chart would be Sable (aw+a) with Black and Tan (as+a) which would produce sable, black and tan, and black puppies. __________________ Argos vom Eisernen Loewen VPG1, CGC, TC 3-3-07 Bianka vom Eisernen Loewen BH, CGC, TC 1-3-08 Cade vom Eisernen Loewen CGC 3-25-09 D'Artagnan (Tag) vom Eisernen Loewen 2-2-10 G Aiko von Burkndeiros SchH 3, IPO3, FH, TC, KKL2 9-17-02 Last edited by JKlatsky; 02-23-2010 at 10:17 AM.

02-23-2010, 10:18 AM	#10 (permalink)
crispy Master Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Bath England Posts: 944	this is the photo of the mum she looks black..is registered as black, but when fur is parted you can see the sable, around her knickers and neck. No the stud dog has not been tested. __________________ crispy & gang

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