I posted in puppy pictures but I'm thinking it wasn't the appropriate thread so here we go! I appreciate all input thanks ahead of time!
Looking for some insight on these babies. Dad is Duke the black gsd on the far right. Mama is Daisy on the far left. we ended up with
-two obvious sable males
-2 black females with white blazes
-one black male
-two females with brown feet and brown on their face
-two seemingly solid black females.
Just recently the black girl with white blaze and the black male are turning brown and have gray underneath.
Duke has no other color than black and Daisy is a Black and Tan I'm assuming since her saddle is black down to the roots. How in the world did we get sables and why are the black puppies getting this funky coloring? I've done some reading and still can't find anything on black puppies changing color. Help!
*female solid black is still solid black
Also I hope I'm inserting the pic links correctly!! New here
Second pic is pups at 2weeks. Thought they looked like some strange coloring.
Sable is dominant, black is recessive, so there in usually sable hidden in the genes. The black with white are probably bicolor. Puppies can change colors for a long time, except for the solid black with no white or tan. Why did you decide to mix lines? When you do that, outcomes are unpredictable.
We bred our dogs because of their temperament. We had friends and family clear up in CT and local too of course who wanted a gsd. Duke and Daisy are probably the most easy going and lovable dogs I've ever met. They let the kids hang and hug all over them. Just well behaved I suppose but I gotta hand it to their friendly nature.
I remember biology and how genes worked to a high school level but with all the reading I've been doing I'm baffled. We love sables TO DEATH and have always wanted one. Just never had any luck finding one local so I'm thrilled that we've got sable babies just totally clueless on the blackies getting all silver and brown!
You cannot get sable puppies if neither of the parents are sable. So either your female is in fact a sable (can't really see her in the picture), or another male got to her when she was in heat.
How can sable be dominant and not show on an all black dog when black is recessive? Also one of the girls who had no white and a boy who just had 3 white hairs are both turning
If you have black puppies, it means that the mother carries a black gene. Since each puppy gets one gene from the mother, and one gene from the father, you can have black puppies if she passed on her recessive gene. As for the white blazes on the black puppies, it is not uncommon for there to be white patches when puppies are really young. They usually disappear as they get older.
There is something called a dilute. I wonder if the light pup in the second picture is a blue: maybe a diluted black or diluted black and tan. It will be interesting to see how he/she looks at 8 weeks and beyond. Usually the liver dilutes will have a brown nose and paw pads, and the black dilutes will have grey.
I posted in puppy pictures but I'm thinking it wasn't the appropriate thread so here we go! I appreciate all input thanks ahead of time!
Looking for some insight on these babies. Dad is Duke the black gsd on the far right. Mama is Daisy on the far left. we ended up with
-two obvious sable males
-2 black females with white blazes
-one black male
-two females with brown feet and brown on their face
-two seemingly solid black females.
Just recently the black girl with white blaze and the black male are turning brown and have gray underneath.
Duke has no other color than black and Daisy is a Black and Tan I'm assuming since her saddle is black down to the roots. How in the world did we get sables and why are the black puppies getting this funky coloring? I've done some reading and still can't find anything on black puppies changing color. Help!
I just prodded Duke over and over every inch. He has tipped hairs around his eyes. I came here knowing nothing and learning a lot and I appreciate every piece of advice you are all offering me. I know that it is possible that Major could have fathered the two sable boys, just because I believe that Daisy could have been going into heat with out any signs. I feel like that is a possible thing since God works in mysterious ways. Major, like I mentioned, tries to mate every female he meets regardless of their reproduction status or lack there of. I also know that other than Duke and Possibly Major no other dog could have gotten ahold of Daisy. We get coyotes and some wild dogs up here in the middle of nowhere and our males keep them at bay. But because of that we made sure both were secure. I've read that the way a female releases eggs is over a period of days/weeks so if indeed Major managed to fertilize with out the common knotting I would say the two sables are his.
My original question was about some of the black pups turning brown. With the two sables aside, is it possible that Duke is in fact a type of sable and the blackish brown pups are a type of sable? I've seen sooo many different looking sables and have to say looking at pics of black sable puppies I see a resemblance. Macy does have a solid black stripe down her back.
I swear I'm not trying to divulge information piece by piece just having ideas and questions pop into my head as this riddle unfolds.
Also I really have found myself on this forum soooo many times since I first got Daisy and it's loaded with greatness. A post somewhere on here was talking about picking LC out at birth and onward. I love little Macy regardless of her color or her coat length but I really think she's got the LC going on. She has the most amazing personality as well, one couldn't help but love her! Again I appreciate the positive thinkers on here and pointers for the future. My mom and I had two therapy dogs that we trained and had cert together back when I was a preteen. I owe everything to her when it comes to my big heart and patience.
If the bitch does not carry the black gene, than I think what you have are black and tan puppies where the grey could be silver, and that will grow. They will be blanket backs probably, but black and silver or black and tan -- all are black and tan just different levels of pigment. So a black and silver is black and tan without much pigment in the tan.
Wow, neither of those bitches look patterned sable to me, but I'm not an expert on sables, for sure. The pup looks sable, but I've only seen one blue black and tan (in person) and it did not really look like that, just looked more grey than the other puppies.
Thanks for everyone's response!
The pups all have black pads and noses. And out of the 5 blacks, 3 are changing, one has not. Not worried about the blaze, Daisy has one and I think it's fabulous <3
I have been reading a bunch and I've learned about penciling. Well really just what the term means.. 3 of the pups have it on their paws, one of the girls with white blaze has white penciling on her toes. Not sure if that's relevant.
I've read that a patterned sable can appear to be a B/T saddle but if you turn the fur you see a lot of colors. Daisy is not like that. Her undercoat looks grayish but elsewise totally black except her bitch stripe. The male in the middle is patterned I believe since his entire saddle is tri-colored hair when you flip it. The black male is totally black, every inch so I guess that means he has to be a+a right? All black genes? His mom was black and his dad a BT or possibly a patterned sable I suppose...
Daisy's parents looked to be BT but her dad's saddle was semi-sandy around the edges (I had never heard of a patterned sable until 3 days ago so now I'm second guessing every saddle!)
I love gray/blue and liver tho. Just found out about those. I had never heard of anything other than the dark and light sables, BT and black and white gsds-so amazing how unique each and every one can be imo!!
I don't think they are either but I guess I need to looking into what a dilute is. One of the brown feet girls I suspected to have a blanket.
Lastly.. hypothetically speaking.. let's say my male (major who is pictured in the middle) got ahold of my female. I know they can have more than one-puppy-daddy but can the reproduce if there isn't a "locking" of the two? I know he tried and I believe it was before she went into heat (no bleeding at that time). I really don't think anything happened. They were playing and he was trying to mount but jumped right off..
*sorry for the novella!
This almost reminds me of seal... which isn't present in GSDs. Very odd coat color indeed! Will be curious to see how that pup grows up but I wonder if someone else snuck in their DNA as none of this adds up. It's possible mom could be a patterned sable but from my understanding that generally implies they carry for the saddle pattern... not black.
I don't see dilution though, if the dilution gene is present it is not possible for there to be any black in the coat as it turns all black to blue/grey. Same goes for liver, liver changes all black in the coat to liver. Those two genes only affect eumelanin pigment, not phaeomelanin. Basically it does not affect the tan in the coat, only areas that would be black.
Here's a little more info on seal... unfortunately it's not really understood. Dog Coat Colour Genetics
By no means an expert here but if the male in the middle is a patterned sable and intact then I'm going to say that both your males sired pups in this litter since you have sables in the litter. But what do I know
Also check out this little girl, it's Macy and the entire pregnancy I read how to pick out a long coat.. everything was from you guys here on the forum! Wanted to see what you thought. She has the wavy look when born and schnauzer looking head.
I wondered that too. I asked yesterday if they had been tested but didn't get an answer. I'm wondering how easy it will be to place puppies with no prior testing. Is there a pedigree on them? Are the parents titled in anything?
A suggestion for the OP. Put together a puppy packet for your buyers on socialization and training. The breeders here can help you. Make sure the people who take your puppies understand the important of raising a young GSD with structure and consistency, and how to do that. You have obviously done that well with your dogs.
Thank you. The 3 pups that have owners that are not friends or family have all had gsds who have crossed the rainbow bridge at 14+ years of age. I've never met anyone who has owned one and hasn't fallen in absolute love with this amazing breed. It has brought me joy to have given them companionship once again.
Duke came with guaranteed health and hip. His parents were AKC registered. Daisy did not. We lost everything including all of his paperwork in a house fire. Majors parents were registered but I didn't care for papers so I didn't pay for them or receive them. Here is majors fur and a picture of his mom and dad respectively.
I totally respect and understand the health issues. My mom worked at a veterinary hospital for 10 years and bred Boston terriers (papered). We wanted to have puppies just once for the experience. All of the puppies went to relatives and close friends except for 3 and I stay in contact with them because they are more than pets, they are family! I feel good about the entire experience and enjoyed every minute. Our dogs work our farm, herd the cow when we had him and protect the chickens. They even herd the chickens into the coop if I need them to. The puppies are getting fixed by their owners and they were wanting companions.
I've done some reading on VetGen to have some testing done with the coats. I'm not sure how to find out more about Daisy's genealogy.
Majors mom and dad:
Major:
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