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Another day another problem; Vicious barking at other dogs.

22K views 259 replies 32 participants last post by  MineAreWorkingline 
#1 ·
A little back story. When I got her at 8 weeks old she was very submissive to other dogs. Would lay down before they approached, would play with other dogs. There were a few times where other dogs would viciously bark at her. ONE time an old jolly idiot comes over to my side of the street with his big dumb intact lab. The lab starts humping my dog. She didnt like it and snapped at the lab.
Well I dont know if it was that incident, or that she is friends with a 3-pack of dogs around my block who ALWAYS bark at any dog passing by. Maybe she picked up the habit from them. Fast forward, the past month or so my 6 month old viciously barks at 95% of the dogs she sees. Mostly its at dogs smaller than her. Now, when the owner has the courage to let them meet even after all the barking my dog never snaps at them and never barks anymore, she plays with the dogs. But if she sees them coming like 50 feet away, or across the street its a very loud growling, and persistent bark.
Need some advice here please. I will not hire a trainer I'm sorry, I do pretty well training her myself. The lunging and jumping on people is getting better and better I just need some advice here.
 
#2 ·
Have a well proofed leave it command. She pays attention to the other dog. You say leave it. She obeys the command. Problem solved.

That is how I lived life with an incredibly dog aggressive game bred pit bull.

And rethink your stance on that trainer. You have been having a LOT of issues with this pup. They are only going to get worse during adolescence. There is only so much help you can get with online forums.
 
#3 ·
You have to engage her before the barking begins. Before anything. You need to stop it before it starts. I read here at some point that if you feel the leash pull, you've lost the dog. Do whatever you're going to do before that happens. I use high value food rewards, a ball, small tug. Whatever is the "hot" item for her. Also, praise the crap out of your dog when they do it right. I forget this sometimes and I wish I didn't. My girl at 1 isn't perfect at this but when she's not I know that it is usually on me. I wasn't focused. I missed something. Her overall engagement and obedience need to be worked more. When I take care of my end of the leash, she's looking at me and could care less about that other dog because hey, let's catch the ball.
I don't let my dog meet other dogs on leash. Period. She is fine off leash. If your dog is going bonkers and you let her meet the dog, you are rewarding that behavior. Since we don't meet and greet, my pup is more relaxed. She's not anticipating anything. Sure, the flexi lead crowd might think I'm crazy but so what. Many a trainer will tell you not to let dogs meet while on leashes.
And, get a prong. Your dog is only going to get bigger and stronger and more wild. It's a useful tool. You are trying. This will help you.
 
#4 ·
Can you explain why you think that you do not need a trainer/dog classes. The dog may or may not need them. But I think you do. Most good trainers take their own dogs to classes, because it provides the dog the experience of working with her owner in the presence of other dogs working with their owners.

But, a lot of people are there learning the basics that make up the building blocks of the dog's behavior: learning how to provide clear communication, learning when to praise, when to treat, when to correct, how to correct. We are given feedback about our body language and our dog's body language, and how that is working for or against us.

We need to change our mindset. We will run to the vet and get antibiotics and ointment for the ears. We do not say, we are going to will the ear infection away. But we buck and fight paying a nickel for dog-training.

What is the single largest cause of death of adolescent dogs? Yep, lack of training -- owner didn't need a trainer, wouldn't pay for training. Dog's behavior becomes unmanageable. Dog lands in shelter. Shelter euthanizes dog, probably before the owner drives away.

Training is every bit as important as vaccinating and proper vet care. It can only get so far in a vacuum.
 
#8 ·
You posted this the other day:

I stopped watching this guys youtube videos. I feel that his answer to everything is a prong collar. Maybe he is right, maybe he is wrong. If my dog continues having problems I will use a prong collar, many great and obedient dogs need it. I was just trying to figure out a way without the use of one just yet.
What your seeing is the natural progression of things that she's been doing. It might get worse. You're focused too much on the equipment and your feelings about how they will effect her, and not on what matters. The behavior that's being trained. Don't waste your time worrying about incidents and causes. All that matters is now.
 
#10 ·
A little back story. When I got her at 8 weeks old she was very submissive to other dogs. Would lay down before they approached,
Right there told you all you needed to know.

It sounds like you chose the "she'll get over it approach" and it's not worked out so well?? I can't even conceive of a dog "humping my girl??" Only way an unknown dog could get to my girl (well any of my dogs) would be to go through me!

The only dogs your dog should have associated with are "Known Safe Stable Dogs." And those would have been dogs like mine ... expect by and large owners like "me" don't do "I thought my dog was friendly people." So yeah there is that.

If your goals are more modest and simple ie "Ignore other dogs" then yes you can do that. But if you "actually" intend to keep doing what you have been doing with the wrong dog ... most likely you will indeed "Need a Trainer???"

And ... my dogs have zero issues being around other dogs?? They have never had any negative experiences with unknown dog's so why would they??

At any rate to better understand what you've done ... have a look at the second and third article here.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

People need to understand where they are at in order to understand how to get where they want go! Not saying it can't be done but you might want to consider some changes .. if your a "No Trainer" person, I'm a KISS kinda and not messing around with unknow dogs ... fits perfectly with that "Philosophy." :)
 
#11 · (Edited)
This is what I know (FWIW):

A reactive dog never needs to meet up-close another dog the rest of its life.

Dog reactivity is a management and training problem.

Good leadership lessens and/or eliminates dog reactivity.

A dog does not get over reactivity by himself. He does not grow out of it w/o intentional intervention.

If a person is having an on-going reactivity problem, that person needs a good trainer for obedience. That person is in over his/her head because, if s/he knew what they were doing, the reactivity would have been taken care of the minute it started.

I speak from personal experience. My dog's reactivity forced me to go out into the world of trainers and experiment with all sorts of remedies the trainers promoted (or didn't know how to handle). I learned from everyone. My GSD is 2.5 years old. I finally have the reactivity under control. Two years of trial and error with various trainers, getting to know my particular dog and have a relationship with him,and a broken shoulder.

I suggest you go to a Schutzhund or IPO club where they will teach you about focus and properly correcting your dog and I would find a good trainer that really knows GSDs, doberman, rottweilers, etc., to help you with obedience.

Good luck to you however you decide to proceed.
 
#12 ·
Sigh....
She doesn't do it to every dog. I just had a walk with her. Across the street was a large golden retriever that she knows, no reaction at all. A block away I run into a husky (out of nowhere he turned the corner). She lunged and barked at him. I found a free doggy bootcamp class where many people bring their dogs and they all go for a walk at a park. Kind of confused honestly, some trainers say to not bring your pup around any dogs, some say to bring them around many dogs. I have to say, bringing her around other dogs seems to have instilled a fear reaction in her. Maybe leerburg was right all along.
 
#20 ·
Do what Steve suggested two posts up. Find a way to pull the money together for a good trainer. Interview trainers until you find one with a lot of German Shepherd experience. Stop making excuses. I did that for years with a previous difficult dog. It was another dog's fault. It was another owner's fault. You chose to get a breed that has reactivity to dogs and people as a natural behavior when you live in a crowded city with a lot people and dogs. It's your responsibility to teach your dog not to react or to react positively. It will only escalate as your dog gets older while you are making excuses. Please make a decision on one method and follow it.
 
#29 ·
My pup has a similar problem and barks at other dogs. We are actively working to correct this. She's almost 5 months.

When she is barking at another dog and doesn't respond to a leash pop or NO BARK command, I have literally grabbed her by the scruff and pinned her down, saying NO BARK sternly. After I do that, when I say NO BARK, she responds. I also remind her of "no bark" as we approach another dog. Not sure if its the recommended way to go but I am having some success with it. The hard part for me is that if I'm walking my dog I almost always have my toddler in a stroller and it can be hard to correct and re-direct effectively and quickly. I'm trying to get her out for some one on one work but my husband is a fireman and we live in CA so basically he lives at work right now, so getting out without my littles is tough. We have a small lake near our home where there's almost always other dogs, so I planned to take her out there soon and do some clicker training where she is paying attention to me, and if she ignores other dogs or obeys the no bark command, I'll treat her. I also have scheduled a few puppy playdates, and got some good advice on here to not let her interact with the pup unless she is not barking. I did that about a week ago. Additionally, I'm meeting with the breeder I used for a puppy class, and she is going to observe this behavior and give me some further advice.
 
#35 ·
There is no magic bullet that will miraculously take all these issues away - they are common behavioural issues that many of us have worked through with our dogs. The answer has been given many times over in many different ways by many different people on this thread:

- don't make excuses for the dog. Expect and demand the same focus and obedience in any situation - you need to have control.

- achieving this won't happen overnight. It takes time, work and consisten effort.

-the time, work and consistent effort = obedience training. Not six week puppy classes and you practice here and there once in a while. For dog-reactiveness, it is intense training, with corrections for breaking focus. I worked with my club two to three times a week, and practiced on all our walks with my dog-reactive, ZERO focus, "What the heck is self-control??" rescue. We got to the point where I could eye-contact heel her past loose barking, lunging dogs. I chose to focus on the end result I wanted, and not on her past (tied dog with zero training when I got her).

My trainer said that except for one other dog he could remember, he had never in his 20 years of dog training seen a dog turn around and change as much as she had. She was never trustworthy around other dogs, but as long as I was around, I could voice control her, and she accepted that some things she was not to do. There was no magic to it, it was time-consuming, repetitive, consistent work from my part.

You get yourself some clear goals on what you want to achieve, and work towards it, baby-steps.
 
#36 ·
NYCgsd, you need a trainer. I am sorry that you are unwilling to do the work that you signed up for when you brought home a puppy. I am sorry you are unwilling to pay for what your dog needs and what you need. If you can sucker the people here into giving you their time and energy, I guess more power to you.
 
#37 ·
@NYCgsd, I know how tough it can be raising a gsd in a big city where you meet so many people and dogs on each and every walk. You can try this.
Let your dog go and try to drag you by the leash, you stand firm, as soon as she turns back towards you, you click and treat. You can mix in some commands like sit or heel. As soon as she breaks focus off the dog or person in the street and puts her focus on you, click and treat. I used this method a LONG time ago.
 
#42 ·
You gave up on trainers after just 2? I finally found a great trainer, my fifth. A good trainer will fast track you for the results you want, by giving you feedback on your handling skills. Ask here for trainer recommendations in your area.

Until then, get someone to film you walking/handling your dog. You might pick up stuff on your handling you can improve on.
 
#44 ·
Yes. Over a time period with four dogs, I went through 5 classes and 2 private trainers before I found the one I use now. Each of the classes has 3 trainers, so that was 15 different training experiences plus the 2 private, or 17 trainers. They were all OK, but most didn't have much German Shepherd experience or if they did, it wasn't working lines. Two had very mellow and calm American line dogs. I finally found someone who has worked with dozens of working lines dogs and the second he touched the leash, I saw my dog's full potential.
 
#52 ·
Well sounds like you got it all under control. YouTube some exercises on teaching your dog the focus command. It's pretty simple. you'll need a clicker and some treats.

But here's a tip: don't describe a dog's actions as vicious and then get annoyed when we take you seriously and try to help. It might seem like not a big deal but vicious puppies can turn into vicious 90lb adults and no one here wants that. Hence all the people trying to help you.
 
#55 ·
"No way am I paying for a trainer though. I can just watch videos and get some ideas"

If you have a high drive pup, I really hope that you understand what a tight leash and pulling against a collar does to your pup and I'm not talking about possible damage. You may need to know that info if your timing is late in getting you pups attention.

This is the kind of information a trainer will know. There are also certain body postures that will illicit almost automatic behaviors in most dogs. A trainer knows them. This stuff is not easily found on YouTube.

I am replying because what you said was really a slap in the face to the professionals and the very experienced.

You may also want to rethink the type of owner that you are meeting and greeting. anyone who would allow their dog to approach and meet a 6month old large breed pup who is barking viciously. What kind of owner makes that kind of choice?
 
#57 ·
Everything is on youtube, I'll give you that, except that you can't see yourself there. You can't see the subtitles of communication and timing, and reading the dog and seeing the dog for the individual that she is. There is a limit to video watching in all things.

I had very well trained aussies and I thought I knew quite a bit until I got Tygo. He is way lot more dog than my aussies were. He proved I was not very skilled. I went to 3 crappy trainers until I struck gold. A golden trainer is not a crap shoot. You do have to pay for it. You cannot learn the upper levels from a video. That is true in any arena. When you have a tough dog, and you drop the ego and do what is right by the dog and by you, it is amazing what you can learn.

It is up to you of course. But try to put yourself aside and really really look at the situation and do what is best for the dog and his/her long life with you.
 
#67 ·
I had very well trained aussies and I thought I knew quite a bit until I got Tygo. He is way lot more dog than my aussies were. He proved I was not very skilled. I went to 3 crappy trainers until I struck gold. A golden trainer is not a crap shoot. You do have to pay for it. You cannot learn the upper levels from a video. That is true in any arena. When you have a tough dog, and you drop the ego and do what is right by the dog and by you, it is amazing what you can learn.
(Well for now) there is always "that guy." That said a "Pack" huh?? Been there done that ... got the stitches!

A "trainer" would not "necessarily have prevented issues among an owner's "Dog Pack??" A "Balanced Trainer" would be "JQP's" best shot. Because I'm pure they "also" do the "Rules ,Structure and Limitations" thing as a matter of course??"

By and large JQP has no idea what any of that means??? So they fire up the old internet and do a search for a "good" PO trainer, and find ... "Gentle Paws" Dog Training, that looks good!" Yes, good luck with that, if that owner does not have "the right dog." :grin2:

Typically successful "Bully" owners are the ones in for the most "Beed Behaviour Shock" if you will, with "Dog Packs." Speaking for myself .... more than a decade of "Drama" free dog ownership.

And then came "Rocky!" Seven month old big furry puppy (OS WL GSD) all I saw was lots of fur and a "pointy face." He "apparently" laid low for five issues free ( that I saw) months and then one day "out of the Blue???" It was "Hammer time" ... it was on big time! That was the first "Pack Fight!"

First lesson learned ... a cookies wasn't gonna cut it! Maybe if I'd have "hit him" with a 50 pound sack of them??? Pretty sure the part in bold (Rules Structure and Limitations) would have "prevented" that situation from ever developing??

I had "thought" I had always been doing that??? I guess I was but "apparently" I had "something off" in my particular interpretation of those things??

Oh well "lessons" learned ... it won't happen again. Just a note from the trenches. :)
 
#59 ·
Wow! I wonder what a newbie would think reading this thread? A little bit hostile in general, ya' think? At the very least, not very positive.

I know there is a time and place for trainers, and this might very well be one, but let's not let puppy and training threads deteriorate into one big sticky that says don't ask questions or look for help, get a trainer. Surely with all of the problem puppies / dogs posted on this forum, somebody must have had this problem with their dog. What did they do? Get a trainer? Okay, what did the trainer say? Is there a thread where it was discussed?
 
#60 ·
I don't disagree with "but let's not let puppy and training threads deteriorate into one big sticky that says don't ask questions"...but this isn't her first thread about the dog's behavior out in public. I am skimming the previous thread and I am seeing plenty of advice that she can implement on her own that could apply to this issue as well. BUT, there is only so much we can do from here. Part of getting better as a trainer is seeing your own faults and working on them. A trainer is great because they can watch and instruct in real time.
 
#64 ·
I don't think anyone here is saying that DIY is evil. In fact, the beginning of the thread had a lot of advice that she didn't need a trainer for. I think people get irritated when someone starts a thread, other users give advice based on the information given, and then the OP starts correcting people's perception of the situation even though they're going on the info that the OP gave in the first place. When someone comes to you for help because they don't know what to do and then critiques your advice it gets frustrating. The advice may not resonate with her, but if nothing has worked so far then I don't see any reason (barring safety) to give it a shot.



And saying "no trainers!" because one was a jerk and the other took a long vacation right after you signed up (the trainer should have been more upfront but I don't think its the biggest sin) seems like throwing baby out with the bath water to me.



Its like having a bad doctor experience and vowing to never go to any doctor ever. It's fine if you feel a cold coming on, but if you start having bigger issues you're going to be in trouble.
 
#65 ·
Hmmm! I went back to read some comments, and from the first page was "I don't think the dog needs a trainer but you do," with plenty of likes. I am not saying the comment, or train of thought, is wrong, but the approach? Although I don't believe that the comment was made with any negative connotations, it easily can be misconstrued as such and may have set the tone.

No bad reflection on OP, but they are trying to raise a family in an unsavory part of town. That hints to me that money may be tight and maybe in OP's mind the money might be better spent budgeted to provide a better neighborhood for their children vs training an unruly dog? I have seen the prices some people have posted as to the cost of good dog trainers in their areas. It definitely puts a good trainer out of the price range of the average JQP.
 
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