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post #21 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-07-2013, 08:29 PM
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wait longer if necessary, find another breeder if necessary,
that doesn't change wanting a certain color or gender.

Originally Posted by doggiedad View Post
there's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a certain sex or color. healthy, sound, strong nerve dogs are male and female and various colors. the dog isn't less healthy because you want a certain gender or color.
Originally Posted by selzer View Post
Yes, but the bitch can have seven females and 1 male, and that male could be super high drive, or totally independent, and that might not be what the family needs either.

>>>> If you are set on a certain color or a certain gender, you may have to wait longer to get the pup of your dreams.<<<<
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post #22 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-21-2013, 03:28 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by drofen View Post
Selzer, thanks for the input.

You are correct, 6 possible breedings, 5 different females, less than 9 months.

Aside from that I am happy to report a positive phone call with the breeder. Although I was the one to make the call, she did know me by name, and what type of pup we are looking for. She gave me an estimated whelp date, and promised more info after a check-up next week. She also told me we were "first or second" on the male list.

I feel better having talked all this through with her and with input from the forum. Thank you all!
Well, I'm sorry to report that again, silence. The time for a promised update came and went without any contact. When I finally emailed asking for an update I got a 2 line email stating that the dog wasn't pregnant after all. So, *another* false pregnancy. An immediate follow up email for more information about future planned litters etc, has gone unanswered for 2 days.

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post #23 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-21-2013, 03:51 PM
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How frustrating for you and your family.

I guess there are two options at this point:

-Ask the breeder if you can have your deposit back. Some make it clear they do not refund deposits. I have no idea what their "deal" is regarding deposits.

-If they won't refund the deposit chalk it up to a loss $$ (I know a tough one to accept) and research and find another breeder.
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post #24 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-21-2013, 04:11 PM
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Here's the thing...breeders are people and not businesses. If this is a good breeder, they're probably working/showing their dogs, especially on the weekends, and so they don't have time to answer emails and it wouldn't surprise me that a breeder isn't answering back to you.

Personally...I wouldn't deal with a breeder that wanted a deposit before the bitch was confirmed or the liter was on the ground. I'm at the moment waiting on a puppy from a friend, and a club member, of mine. She's probably not even going to bother with a deposit from me (sees me weekly) but that's the kind of breeder I want to deal with. She has six puppies reserved already but isn't collecting money. I guess I'm also just much more cautious when I'm paying a large sum of money for something. If I was in your shoes...I planned for a puppy within a certain date range, I'd be really pissed about not getting one in that time period and so I wouldn't really put a deposit down unless I was almost guaranteed a pup.

You went to a good breeder...demand for their puppies shows that. But I always try to tell people (especially those of us looking for pets) that there are so many good ones out there when you're not looking for a specific line. It's cases like yours that scare me a little about putting down a couple hundred dollar deposit without a true sense of when I'm going to get my product...if I were you, I'd probably stick it out at this point and hope that you get a puppy from the next breeding, they seem to do enough of them.

If you're really in a hurry to get a puppy...which you might be as the family has waited for 9 months, I'd bring it up to the breeder and see if they'll be understanding enough to give you the deposit back, if not, you might just have to forget about it and move on to another one.

Just an observation...they've had 3 litters, one of which was really small. Did you ask what number you were on the "waiting list" before you put down a deposit? Sorry...but a simple question like that would've at least given you some idea of where you stood before you put down money. I'm not trying to make you feel bad, but its shocking to me how little information people sometimes get before putting down large sums of money.

Last edited by martemchik; 01-21-2013 at 04:18 PM.
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post #25 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-21-2013, 05:05 PM
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That's what I was going to mention as well about the possibility of the breeder show/trailing/etc. Does this breeder partner with another fellow breeder? If so, could you see if they would transfer the deposit over to that breeder if they have puppies available? How much was the deposit? If it was say $500, I would keep trying and give the breeder that option. That isn't your only option.

I'm sending a PM!!

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post #26 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-21-2013, 06:41 PM
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I think you've been more than patient, Honestly, I'd call them and tell them that , and then I'd send a certified letter saying you wanted your deposit back.

While I agree, everyone has lives/shows etc, I'm not impressed with how "you" have had to track them down and basically pry answers out of them..Not the way I would do business, nor would I do business with someone like that..

Just my 2 cents, but at this time, I'd start looking elsewhere. Good luck to you

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post #27 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-22-2013, 07:32 PM Thread Starter
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I finally lost my cool a bit, and wrote a pretty strongly worded email asking if I needed to move on to another breeder. I also let them know I was unhappy with the communication thus far. This is the response I got:

"We responded right after your last email. Apparently you didn't get it. We have several females to come into heat in the next 45 days."

That's it, and that's all.

Yes, I have paid a $500 deposit. I thought I was doing the right thing because I researched the breeder as best I could, and only found glowing reviews about their dogs, some of them on this very site.

When I paid the deposit on the first litter I knew that I would have to be a large litter or a male heavy litter for us to get one. I was led to believe we were the #4 male pick. We were ok with that, because there were 3 more upcoming litters listed on their site with anticipated whelp dates over the next month and half. I guess bad luck has prevailed and we are still without a pup.

As best as I can tell, we are 1st or 2nd male pick on the next viable litter. I'm just starting to wonder when that will be.

I get that people have lives, and stuff happens. I just think a $1850 purchase warrants an occasional update. I get that breeders aren't getting rich off of their breedings if they're doing it right, but that's still a lot of money for a family like mine.

And that brings up the emotional investment for my family. I have dissappointed my kids too many times already with dashed hopes of getting a pup and then something happening. They ask me at least once a week if our puppy is coming home yet.

Just so frustrated.

The contract clearly states deposits are nonrefundable. My wife is not willing to walk away from our $500 deposit, even though I'm ready. So I guess we just wait.
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post #28 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-22-2013, 09:31 PM
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I think I would move on.

Ok, here's the thing, I don't get that you are looking for a high level schutzhund competitor, or a dog that you would like to take to a national championship in the conformation ring.

$1,850 is upper end for a 8 week old German Showline puppy. Yes you can find some for $2500 or even more, but average is in the neighborhood of $1,500. Either way you are definitely in the ball park. If you are going working lines, they are generally a little less. I am guessing that you can find working lines that are more sought after and will cost you more, either because of their ancestry or the level of accomplishments of sire and/or dam. My point is, you can probably find a very nice pet in the $1350 - $1500 range, STILL go to a decent breeder, and get the dog you want with a more present breeder, if you go to a breeder who isn't breeding 5-6 bitches within 3 months.

I am not saying the breeder is no good, I am saying it isn't a fit for you and your family.

I have an issue with them knowing the breeding will have a LOT of males, feeling confident that though you were fourth on the list, you would have males to choose from that fit your bill.

Let me see,

Arwen/Dubya #1 -- 5 males, 2 females
Arwen/Dubya #2 -- 3 males, 5 females
Babs/Rushie -- 1 male, 6 females
Jenna/Gispo #1 -- 6 males, 4 females
Jenna/Gispo #2 -- 4 males, 3 females
Babs/Herko #1 -- 2 males, 1 female
Babs/Herko #2 -- 1 male
Jenna/Herko -- 3 males, 5 females
Bear/Herko -- 5 males, 4 females
Odie/Obi -- 1 female

My point is, out of 10 litters, 3 would have given you a choice between 2 or 3 puppies. that is, if they happened to have the color you wanted. And if other qualifiers did not disqualify one or more of them. And many of those were good-sized litters. To suggest that it is probable to get what you are looking for as the fourth male pick.

It sounds like if you ran out of suitable males on litter 1, you would be first in line for litter #2, but that isn't how it works. Sometimes, for example, the stud fee is a puppy, and if the male is very good, it may be a pick puppy. And then it depends on what the stud owner wants whether they want male or female. So you may be bumped to #2. But if people that want these dogs CHOSE litter 2 and knew they would be PICK 2, now suddenly you are pick 3 or pick 4 AGAIN!!! I mean, it isn't the person or persons who chose litter 2's fault that your bitch did not whelp.

These people obviously have a LOT of puppies and have a LOT of puppy buyers. They had some misses, or whatever, and came up short. But they are not concerned about losing the customer. Partly because their puppies didn't happen, and partly because they have your healthy deposit and it is non-refundable.

What I would do, is find a couple of decent breeders who have litters on the way, and choose one once the puppies are on the ground, and you know how many males there are, and what the litter is likely to produce. Then you ask whether anyone has a deposit down, and you choose at that point if you want to put your name down for a puppy from the litter. Then you tell your kids the date that you are going to bring the puppy home. Of course it is ALWAYS possible to lose puppies after they are born as they are living creatures and susceptible to many things, but your chances are excellent for bringing hope the pup on the date if you wait until pups are on the ground.

I think the wife would be open to this plan if you look in a price range that recoups some of your loss. But, then you are giving the breeder you are with $500 for nothing. It is a stiff lesson.

I usually do not let prospective puppy buyers know that puppies have arrived for about a week. That way I am pretty confident with what I have. I am not a big fan of deposits, exactly due to the problems you are having. A lot of good breeders like to give the buyer a pick between two or three pups that best match what he is looking for, and not simply the #2 or # 4 male pick. This is because we mark behavior on the pups from 3 weeks and up, and might see that one is a lot more drivey and should be put with someone with an active home, another might be more independant and may need an experienced owner. You take your middle of the road pups and give people a choice between them.

Some people though know what they want and how to pick the best puppy, and that person may be given a choice of all the males.

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post #29 of 35 (permalink) Old 02-01-2013, 06:14 PM Thread Starter
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Well, we've decided to move on. We've put a deposit down for a puppy from a litter that's already on the ground with another breeder.

Now I'm working on getting our deposit back. I sent an email explaining that I thought the circumstances were a little bit out of the ordinary and warranted a refund.

As you might imagine, no reply yet.
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post #30 of 35 (permalink) Old 02-01-2013, 07:08 PM
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I would send them a certified letter, this way they have to sign for it and you will get a receipt saying they received it.

Personally, and I dont like the sue happy world we live in, I would just say, I expect a response of more than a one liner within xxxx amount of days or I'll be contacting my lawyer..

A bluff but I'd really want more than a one liner response, since I think you deserve atleast that after all this time of you being patient.

Good luck with your NEW puppy!

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