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Social dominance and hand biting - corollation?

2K views 24 replies 10 participants last post by  Jag 
#1 ·
As I've watched my puppy's behavior over the last 2 months I've noticed an action/reaction over and over and I wonder if its related.

My pup was an alpha from his litter and he continues to act that way around dogs his size. So while playing at the park or with other dogs, I see him place his paw on the head of other dogs and I assume its a sign of dominance. The reaction from submissive dogs is to take this action and often lay down. The reaction from old dogs and alphas is to pullback from the paw on the head and then lung in at my pup. All normal behavior I think, but I write this just for background for the next bit I'm going to write.

In social settings with people and kids Gunnar still believes himself to be alpha when confronted by strangers. And people being dumb like to pet puppies without asking and sometimes get nipped by him. But what I've noticed is that he reacts to being petted on the head just like the alpha dogs at the park react when Gunnar puts his paw on their heads. If people pet Gunnar on his back or sides he does not get as riled up.

Is my observation of dominance and head petting common across this breed?
 
#2 ·
My understanding is petting on top of the head, or leaning over the dog, is a dominant position. Dogs approach each other from the side, not head on and the head and body over the back is a dominance thing. IMO, this is a DOG thing and not a BREED thing.

I'm not a big believer in the dog/people dominance theory. I think they know we aren't dogs. But I have seen dogs react differently to people petting them on the top of the head vs the chest area. It might be excitement too. Their hands are closer to his head, more visual, etc and he might just be trying to play.
 
#3 ·
Thanks Michelle, that makes a lot of sense. He seems to respond a lot better to people who stoop down and pet his back. The worst thing I see is when someone bends at the waist and then pets the top of his head, he immediately lunges at their face and while his tongue is often out for a kiss, I fear the day that he doesn't like the person and goes for a bite. For that reason I ask everyone to wait until I have him in a sit position and I'm holding his collar before I let them pet him. At least until this behavior has subsided.
 
#6 ·
In social settings with people and kids Gunnar still believes himself to be alpha when confronted by strangers. And people being dumb like to pet puppies without asking and sometimes get nipped by him. But what I've noticed is that he reacts to being petted on the head just like the alpha dogs at the park react when Gunnar puts his paw on their heads. If people pet Gunnar on his back or sides he does not get as riled up.
If I may.....I wish you'd re-consider your pup's reaction as being dominate or Alpha. He's a puppy. A baby. Think of it as your pup is confident. A confident pup. A great thing to have.

A four month old pup is not ever allowed to react towards a stranger or anybody by nipping. Play or not. Ever. A stranger should be able to handle your pup anywhere on it's body with out any negative reaction from your pup. It's up to YOU to decide if a person can pet your pup...not your pup. Not ever your pup.

My 3 year old 97lb male GSD is a confident, aloof dog. He doesn't like to be pet by strangers. He doesn't like for strangers to bend over him. But if they do, by God, he will NOT react. He'll look at me. My job is to respect his needs and not put him in a situation where he has to give me that look.

As a puppy, while I was socializeing him, I noticed when strangers got all goo-goey over a puppy, he'd ignore them. Didn't matter what they said, or how they called. He'd ignore them. If they came to him to pet him, he'd ignore them. He allowed them to pet him and gush, but he didn't respond. That was a clue to ME that to have people gush over him just wasn't his bag. My job was to teach him to allow it, without reaction.

I can take my dog anywhere and know that I can control him. If I had allowed him to progress and react, he'd be stuck for life in my back yard with a high insurance policy.
 
#7 ·
Thanks Lilie for your feedback. And while I agree that ultimately I'd like him to be able to care less about what's going on around him, I'm not sure how to get there. Can you offer advice?

For instance: When we got to puppy socialization class the other day this is what I had at the end of my leash for the first hour:


We progressed to this:


And then to this:



But that's after 2 hours of play and learning . I'm not sure how to progress straight to the calm puppy when I take him to park with my kids and strangers and kids are coming up behind me when I'm not looking and Gunnar has not been run and played with for 2 hours. Much less the adult who I'd think should know better comes up to me in a parking lot and gets right in his face. I'm open to any and all suggestions.
 
#8 ·
Let me say first, I LOVE your puppy! I love that intense, engaged look. You are going to have your hands full for a long time with this one, I bet. But as he matures, it will be so very worth it!

If he were mine, I'd practice NILIF 24/7. Nothing In Life Is Free. You want to build on his confidence, yet make him focus on you for direction. This forum has tons of threads on NILIF.

I would enroll him in puppy classes. A professional instructor will help you find tools you'll need to work with him. Not only are classes good for your pup, they are a great tool for the handler as well. Classes aren't just to teach your pup the basics, they also help build a solid foundation for you and your pup.

It really helps if you change your mindset from thinking of your pup as a dominate dog. And start thinking about your pup as a confident pup, "This world is mine!" type pup. "Hey you over there! Come play with me!"
 
#10 ·
Agree. What a gorgeous confident little guy. Look into clicker training so you don't have to "fight him" to comply.

His outlook is a lot like WD's and at 11 months is a dream to work with, clicker trained in combination with NILIF. But is was a heck of a job to get him to this point.
 
#11 ·
He's adorable!!!!

Personally, when they are lunging and going berserk at the end of the lead, I turn around and walk away. It does a couple of things. First, you are breaking their concentration on the object and you are taking them to a distance that is within their threshhold. I work closer to the "object" using Look At That and rewards. Your goal should be that they look to you for direction instead of fixating on the object.

What happens when he's off lead? it looks like he's just excited to get to the other puppies and play.
 
#13 · (Edited)
I must admit that there was a lot going on out of the frame of that top picture, but his drive against the harness is fairly common when he sees something that interests him (dogs at park, strangers coming at him from a distance, anyone with a hotdog, etc).

When he's off lead different things happen:
In my backyard he plays with sticks and ignores me unless I have a ball or I chase after him trying to get his stick.
At the dog park he runs up to the big dogs and tries to engage them, then runs and hides between my legs when they DO engage him.
With smaller dogs he climbs on top of them, nips at necks and chases.
Inside the dog park but away from the other dogs he will sniff the bushes while I walk away then play catch up. He will come when I call, chase and return balls, but he has zero recall if playing with other puppy's.
 
#14 ·
I haven't seen a true alpha react with aggression towards people, nor have I seen one run and hide behind a person if a bigger dog engages with them. A true alpha has more control than that with people. It sounds like your dog is blowing you off because you've allow the dog to blow you off. Exercise the dog before classes to get some of the energy out. Socialize with only stable dogs that can show your pup stable behaviors.
 
#17 ·
nice looking pup. you have to teach him how
to meet and greet. with training and socializing
your pup is going to be fine. i think a dog should
be able to be approached from any angle and
touched anywhere by a stranger and not react.
when my dog was a pup i made sure he was petted
all over his body by strangers and approached from all angles.
 
#24 ·
At this young age, I don't believe you're going to see much "alphaness" in your pup! I'm not saying your pup's not an alpha, personally, I think it's too soon to tell. Confident? Over the top? Hyper? Active? Demanding? Sure ... all of these, and all of these can be normal, depending on the line of your dog. l

My last dog was an alpha female, and she was a thing of beauty to watch interact with other dogs. BUT, she wasn't like that as a puppy ... she was just that as a puppy - a ball of fur, four long legs and tail and floppy ears. By the time she was two and a half (socially / mentally mature) her "alphaness" blossomed.

A true "alpha" (I personally prefer the term leader) never shows aggression EVER, towards another dog. Abby used to mediate dogs at the dog park. She'd simply stand there and watch them play, and if she noticed that the "level" was getting a bit too much, she'd simply walk over and insert herself between the two dogs. No growling, no lip curl, nothing but her physical presence. Guess what ... the dogs calmed down INSTANTLY.

Here's another story about "a true alpha" ... it's a long one ...

I got an email from a friend who needed help with her dog, Olive. She adopted Olive from the Humane Society and was told that Olive was 3 years old, and a rottie-mix. I went over to her house and met her dog - such a great dog, lots of fun and full of life.

A couple of weeks later I get an email – Olive had turned into a terror at the off leash dog park. Apparently, she was “attacking” the other dogs. Most people were helpful, but after repeated “attacks” she was asked to keep her dog away from their dogs.

After consulting with my roommate (at the time), we agreed to have Olive come by and see what the hoopla was all about. When I met Olive, I had certainly not witnessed any displays of aggression or dominance … however, I hadn’t seen her interact with other dogs.
We were also babysitting another dog, so we kept the other dogs in the house and gave Olive about 10 minutes to scope out the backyard and learn who lived there. I have to admit, I was hesitant to have Abby meet her first … if Olive really did attack, I wasn’t sure what would transpire between her and Abby. The last thing I wanted was a REAL dog fight and not some snapping of jaws and growling. My friend had to leave to run some errands, so off she went while my roommate and I prepared for introductions.

We decided to let the big goofy Bernese come out first. As soon as Jo came out, Olive came running up **** bent for leather and jumped right in his face. Jo backed up a bit, let out a low growl and moved away. Undeterred, Olive continued her overenthusiastic jumping and pouncing greeting. Jo NEVER growls. This dog has the patience of a saint, and the most relaxed temperament I have ever seen on ANY dog. Every time Olive jumped in his face, he growled, and backed off. When she pounced on him, he growled and moved away. After about 5-7 minutes, she got the hint and started playing with him in normal “doggie fashion.” Play bows, barking, running in circles, and simply having fun. Fifteen minutes later her interest waned, and she started checking out the yard again.

Now it was time for Abby to come out and greet the newcomer. At this stage, I wasn’t worried about Olive being aggressive (she is so NOT aggressive!) however, I was concerned that if she greeted Abby in the same fashion, she might not understand the correction that Abby would make. I needn’t have worried at all. We let Abby out and Olive came running up 90 miles an hour, to see the new dog. As soon as she was within about a foot of Abby’s presence, she dropped and rolled on her back!

Oh yeah, this is one AGGRESSIVE ROTTIE … hold back your dogs people …Olive’s going to eat you!!! Needless to say my roommate and I were stunned. Abby stood beside Olive and let Olive smell her. Then Abby nudged Olive to stand up (which she did) and then Abby proceeded to sniff her. They had a wonderful, slow and CALM “get to know each other” session. It was the most beautiful event to watch.
We let the three dogs run around and play for about 15 minutes before we brought out the next dog, and then the next one. For about 45 minutes the five dogs had an absolute field day.

Olive displayed NO aggression at all … what we did learn was that Olive was a SOCIAL MORON … she simply had NO CLUE how to meet and greet other dogs. And when she came face-to-face with a balanced and well socialized alpha, she knew exactly what to do.

Then we decided to let out the last dog (he was the last one because he displays some inappropriate behaviours – growling, lip curling, attempting to dominate other dogs. He is very respectful of Abby – she’s corrected him in the past, but we weren’t sure how he’d react with Olive.)

It did not go well, at all. My roommate called Olive over and we let out the last dog. He ran around sniffing the other dogs, and then we let Olive go. They came up to each other, it was just the two of them within a 3-4 foot radius and I see his lip curl, and BAM he’s on her. On the plus side, he weighs about 12 pounds … on the even bigger plus side … Abby came flying over to help my roommate and I. She did a great job … we got the little dog out of the way and Abby went over to Olive and stood beside her.

We waited about 5 minutes, and then let them go again. NOPE. As soon as the little dog came near Olive, he went after her like a bat out of ****. Same result. Thank you again to Abby for helping us out!

We decided to try it one more time. It didn’t work. He went after her harder than he had the first two times. This time, all the dogs were hyped up. It took about 15 seconds to get the other dogs out of the way, (thankfully, they are trained, and do listen!) while Abby was busy getting the little dog under control. She was herding him out of our way, and away from Olive.

Poor Olive was in shock … she had no idea what she’d done wrong (nothing) and was sitting on the ground shaking, head hung low, ears down, and eyes downcast. We knew we needed to get her out of the state as soon as possible.

We put the little dog back in the house, and then we watched a miracle unfold.

Abby went up to Olive and licked her ear (we found out after that she’d got her ear caught in a dog’s mouth – just a little scratch, nothing serious). Then Abby licked under her chin, Olive’s head rose up. Abby then circled around Olive, giving her lots of “licks” around her ears, her snout, and under her chin. Olive stood up and started walking, Abby walked beside her. Abby’s tail started to wag, and she was still “encouraging” Olive to move with her. Suddenly, Olive’s stubby tail starts a slow wag, and then over the course of the next 30 seconds, her whole body position changes. Her tail starts to wag faster and faster, her head comes up, neck is up, ears perk up, and she’s now PRANCING around the backyard. The other two dogs come over to see what is happening and WHAMO, Jo, the big Berner gets her going, and they are off.

While I was watching this miracle unfold, I had tears in my eyes. My roommate and I both knew that Olive needed to be reassured that she hadn’t done anything wrong, before we had a chance to move in and get her moving, Abby did what she was born to do … lead, guide, heal, teach, interrupt, encourage and love.

So that's my definition of alpha, leader of dogs, whatever you want to call it. Your puppy could very well be an alpha, but like I said earlier, I think it is way too soon to even think about those types of behaviours coming from your puppy! He's got some growing and maturing to do first!!!


It's also very important for people to recognize the difference between a dog that's a born "alpha / leader" and a dog that is a dominant PITA ... a lot of people (I'm not aiming this at you, OP, just a general comment) think that ANY dominant dog is an alpha ... this is so not true, and can certainly lead to the owners letting the dog get away with bloody murder b/c they think their dog is a leader.

On a final note, your puppy is freaking adorable!!!! I love that first pic with him half off the ground!
 
#25 ·
Lilie- I found your post helpful to me, too! I hadn't thought about that as a way to get a pup's attention. Was wondering how I'm going to get the attention of this ball of energy during class! :)

Kyleigh- beautiful story! It's a beautiful thing to witness... one dog helping another! :) I'll bet things got much better for Olive after this interaction!

Thorny- your pup is absolutely gorgeous! Hope to see many more pics of him.
 
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