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A thought I have, no dog is perfect.

4K views 54 replies 22 participants last post by  selzer 
#1 ·
Everyone admires a well trained dog. People are quick to criticize a dog for its faults, breed, the owner, or sometimes just the dog itself. They say train your dog or get a better dog. However there is a problem, training a dog is a lot of work and depending on the dog can be expensive.

I recently saw this video of Leeburg Enterprises about the truth of Positive Training and I completely agreed with it. It is a scam and a lie pushed by animal activists and corporations like Petsmart and Petco as the proper and politically correct way to train a dog. For reasons unknown to science, people like to be politically correct which is weird because I take pride in being politically incorrect. The guy explained about how you train to a dog's temperament and the drives this dog has.

That's where the problem started with me. I fell for that scam. For most of the time I've had Lobo I trained with Positive Training. Positive training only works with Lobo in low distraction environments and when it comes to teaching him tricks. It doesn't work when he's either highly aroused, distracted, and/or is presented with a high value reward that he isn't supposed to get (i. e. Squirrel, cat, rabbit, littered meat and food). Got him a prong collar and it has as a matter of fact made him more obedient, next I need to get him an E Collar as he is the kind of dog who needs these type of tools. He needs these tools as he is the type of dog who is easily distracted, has high prey and defensive drives, and will ignore handler commands when presented with a high value reward that he's not supposed to ontain. Yet that is what the animal activists don't understand. They think we have to baby our dogs to death and accept their faults.

Lots of people criticize Lobo and my use of prong collars. I haven't been able to obtain an E Collar yet but I imagine I'll get judged harshly when I get one. Yet what they don't realize is that the prong collar has made him more obedient and less likely to lunge at squirrels and cats. Some people even just criticize him for the way he is. He's very defensive, sometimes overprotective, very high prey driven, not reliable off leash, and sometimes dog aggressive. He was also a stray and as much as I try to help him and some of the progress I've seen since the prong collar, his wild side comes out at times.

That's where the main idea of this thread comes in. No dog is perfect. There is no way we can expose our dog to be ready for any kind of challenge and situation in this world. Sometimes money is an issue. I saw a video of a $100,000 trained protection dog being introduced to horses struggle to figure out his way around walking besides a horse. This dog is near perfect in almost all scenarios but struggled in this specific scenario. Baron the German Shepherd is one of my favorites, but this dog struggles to swim and can't roll over. Strange for a dog who knows how to load a dishwasher, but once again he's not perfect. Saw a video of a trained service dog in a zoo break character and start to pull away from its handler when a lion was preying on it.

Sometimes even our dogs surprise us, they will do something both good or bad that we didn't expect. I recently took Lobo hiking in a nearby state park. In usual Lobo fashion he was aloof around all people who passed by including joggers. Several joggers ran by us, yet Lobo surprised me and not in a good way. One specific jogger, Lobo lunged at, growling and snarling too. And I have no idea why he did it. Maybe it was because my back was turned and I was focused on something that caught my attention, but in any form it was unexpected and unacceptable. It appears Lobo misjudged the situation. Lobo thankfully didn't land any teeth on the jogger but it was all around a scary situation.

Some people will get a GSD, a Rottie, or a Dobie thinking it will be the ultimate family protection dog and not realizing the hazards that come with owning one. These dogs have stronger defensive anf protection drives and this is both a good and a bad thing. On one side these dogs make it less likely you get robbed or burglarized, but on another side they can be a liability. There are stories out there where one of these dogs have misjudged a situation and for whatever reason attacked a member of a family. Well trained or poorly socialized there is only so much we can do to expose these dogs to situations. A dog isn't programmed to know the difference between a man wrapping his arms around his female owner for affection versus wrapping his hands around the female owner in a kidnapping attempt.

And this is where you wonder, is it always the owner's or the dog's fault?

I'm running out of thoughts here so let me just conclude with no dog is perfect. There is only so much we can do and expose our dogs to.
 
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#3 ·
And neither is any human, that's the beauty of it all.
As for Lobo. How old is he? I wasn't patient enough with my pup at a young age and went to aversives that weren't understood by my pup when she was younger at the advice of a so called expert trainer Lisa Maze :( Be patient and consistent with positive reward. You'll have a better relationship with your dog and he'll become more confident and trusting. When he gets older, understands what you want and is willfully disobedient, that's the time for aversives.
 
#4 ·
Lobo is 2 years old but he was about a year old when I got him.

Oh and Watery Tart, the lions were behind glass but they were staring the GSD service dog as if with intent to eat it for dinner.
 
#6 · (Edited)
I liked your post and I understand your view. I agree, my wife and I work about 50 to 60 hours a week and sometimes on weekends. I cannot train, supervise and groom my GSD all day everyday.
I love my dog Maxwell, he isn't perfect and cant be off a leash around other dogs. But other than that he is very intelligent--he knows how to open the doors on my truck. He knows when its time for bed, and when its time to eat. He has a perfect personality and isn't biting people he doesn't know--I didn't have to train him how to behave around people very much, he's just a good natured GSD.
I think some GSD are more protective to their owners than others....some dogs will just have to be closely managed and supervised and that's the way it is sometimes. Some dogs also need professional help sometimes too. I am fortunate not to have had to go that route.

I still work with my dog at least a few minutes a day when I get home.

There are more people with dogs like yours than folks will admit.
Hope you and your dog have many years and lots of fond memories together.
 
#8 ·
My wife was just complaining yesterday that she still has one brand new sandal. Compliments of Athena when she was younger. She didn't even get to wear them once. She now keeps her shoes out of reach.
 
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#10 ·
I have to be very careful when I say that my big-boy is not perfect because of how often I say that he is just like my husband, only furry.

My sister trained Border Collies and said that she would never use a prong collar. The family was taking a hike together and my hubby unhooked the leash from big-boy's prong collar and hooked it to the martingale. "here, you walk him" he told my sis handing her the leash. Now my sister is very dog smart and is part of the agility scene. Yet she was working really hard to keep our boy from dragging her down the trail. "It's like trying to walk a horse" she said. Honestly, our big-boy wasn't really pulling that hard. I think he was smart enough to enjoy taking part in the joke. Use the tool you need to be fair and be safe. I won't judge you.
 
#13 ·
Wow, love this. Why, because it so proves my point. People constantly say, "My dog is 110#, and I am 90#s, I NEED a prong collar." But my sister's kids are now 10. They had their first horse show, 2 years ago when they were 8. The older one, who is smaller weighed approximately 40 pounds. Yet she is leading around a horse on a halter that weighed about 1300 pounds. A halter has no bit. That horse could have dragged her into the next county without any trouble at all.

leading a dog is so UN-LIKE leading a horse. A dog generally weighs less than us. A horse weighs many times what we weigh. A dog is a predator. A horse is a prey-animal, meaning it could bolt and we're out of luck. It can literally pull our arm out of the socket. In fact a young kid out this way was dragged to death when she tied the lead rope around her waist. That doesn't happen with dogs.

But we can train a horse to be led by a halter -- no bit. Even though the horse outweighs us by 4-5 times what we weigh. Yes, it is being led by its head, but it could easily refuse to be led, plant its feet and stop. Or start dragging us down the street.

It is funny. The kid was up on the horse between classes, up on Major, which is easily 1600 pounds, one big horse. Intimidated the heck out of me. And because in shows, kids can't just ride the horses back to their area, they have to be led, Elena asked me to help her with him. Sheesh. The last time I was near a horse was when I was her age, some 38 years ago. My mom got me to 4 of the 6 riding lessons she gave me for a Christmas present. Well, I thought, I better exude confidence or this horse will know I don't know what the heck I am doing, so I reached up and took his bridle under his chin and led him all the way back to their area.

If we can manage horses, if tiny 40 pound kids can manage horses with halters, and no prong collars, why can we manage dogs without them? A horse that is a flight animal can be taught to trust humans and be safe in a parade being led or ridden or driven. Why should not a dog who is a predator be safe to be led around those things that might set him off?
 
#11 ·
Carly is perfect. Ask anyone that meets her, lol.
Seriously though, she is one of those dogs that seemed to be born with manners. Easy to train. Grew up at the dog shows, so all the usual craziness associated with that noisy, chaotic environment doesn't faze her. But it's not all training. You're leaving out genetics.
 
#12 ·
Ok, I am anti-PETA, anti-HSUS, and really anti-consider-your-dog-one-of-your-kids.

But, I use mostly positive training methods. I don't use correction collars. Not because the dogs are perfect, or because I am perfect. Neither is true. But, I tend to see training a puppy or dog differently than a lot of people on here seem to.

I see training as communication with another species. You are communicating with the animal what is acceptable, and what is unacceptable, what you want the dog to do, what you do not want the dog to do. It begins when you accept ownership, and from that point on is continuous. A part of training is to teach basic obedience, how to respond in public, how to respond to strangers, how to act with children, where not to go, etc. It is all training.

I do not see a failure of the dog to learn, but a failure to train a specific thing. Which means, I failed to communicate effectively to the dog what I want.

Dogs are really wonderful critters. When they attach themselves to you, they do want to do what it is you want for them to do. The main problem is being effective in communicating what you want.

Now that I know that working a dog "in drive" is simply, effectively preventing a dog from dragging you down the street when it sees a deer or a squirrel, well since that is no problem, I can manage that without a correction collar too. See, I thought maybe that was some type of protection training when a helper is giving the impression that it is coming after you or the dog, and getting the dog way amped up and maybe then I might need something better to get the dog out of the amped up state -- I don't train protection, so I really don't know. But I can call a dog off a squirrel or a deer or a rabbit with voice-control, so I am not really worried about that.

So the way I see it, the dog is a dog, and it has instincts that tell it what to do that are built-in. One of those instincts might be to mark all over the place. Some of those instincts I do not want to live with, so I have to effectively communicate to the dog, to over-come what his instinct tells him to do.

There are things I want a dog to do at any given time. I can communicate with the dog how to do these things using praise and by helping him achieve the position I want. I do this a few times, and soon the dog is doing it reliably. I add in distractions, and soon the dog is doing it here and doing it there and doing it in the presence of a child and doing it in the presence of a dog and doing it in the presence of a parade.

If training is not happening as quickly as I want it to, it is not a failure of the dog to understand and do, but a failure on my part to communicate effectively, and I might have to adjust how I am communicating something. Usually, the dogs learn very fast and are reliable with and without distractions very quickly, using simple praise because we have a relationship of respect and trust. Dogs are natural followers and opportunists. We just have to be leaders.

We have to be leaders -- that bears repeating. A leader is consistent. A leader follows through every single time. A leader communicates effectively. A leader does not repeat themselves. A leader has reasonable expectations. A leader rewards a job well done. When we are good leaders, dogs will follow us, naturally.

This is not true of animals that are not domestic. We have such an easier time training dogs than say, orcas. Trying to correct a killer whale by physically punishing the animal -- how would that work out? And yet they manage to train them, mostly using positive techniques.

If they work for whales, why would it not work for dogs that are a domestic critter and a natural follower. Even an alpha-dog will connect with a human, and if that human projects himself as a good leader, the dog will follow.

A good trainer, can wow a new class of young adult dogs/older puppies who have been brought to class for the first time because now their antics are no longer cute, by taking one of the dogs, and using positive techniques demonstrate the SIT, the DOWN, and even a HEEL. The owner looks at the dog when it is returned to them in awe.

Why does this work. Because the trainer has confidence. The trainer is an unknown entity to the dog, and the dog does what the person wants because it makes sense to them. Some of the positive techniques/hand signals/luring is actually created because the actions are easily, naturally understood by the dog. The treat goes up over the head, so the eyes move up and the butt naturally goes down. Good SIT!

The problems are generally NOT in the dog end of the equation. They are in the people end of the equation. And it doesn't matter if you have trained your last 7 puppies this way and it worked. That does not mean that this dog is defective because he isn't getting it. It means that your method of communication needs to be tweaked for the dog that is in front of you.

I see the problem with training more an impatience on the part of the humans. They get that 8 week pup and ask the breeder, "when can I put a prong collar on him?" Huh? They bring home the pup and on the way way home they stop at the pet store and drag the puppy around. They stop at their friends and relatives homes. They get home and shove a treat in the pup's face and say, "Kerplunga!" The puppy doesn't have a freaking clue! It's shell shocked and done in, and this human now wants me to do something.

We don't bother to get to know the fur ball before we are expecting it to pass a geometry test. We rush out to socialize the puppy before we have even gotten to first base with it. The puppy has no idea whether we are to be trusted or not. Half the time we let other dogs rush right into the pup, bullying them, scaring or even injuring them, and our puppies learn right away that we are NOT to be trusted. They MUST protect themselves.

We think it is funny when the puppy leaps up on us or on friends, and we laugh and pet the puppy. And then we scream at it, rub its nose on the carpet and throw it outside. Our puppy is learning. It is learning that we are crazy and not to be trusted.

One does not have to be a bleeding heart animal-rights person to believe that the responsibility of communication is on the communicator. If the response from the dog is not what we want, then we did not communicate effectively. And unacceptable behavior is more likely because we have been either permissive or inconsistent or corrected unfairly due to unrealistic expectations.
 
#22 ·
Ok, I am anti-PETA, anti-HSUS, and really anti-consider-your-dog-one-of-your-kids.

But, I use mostly positive training methods. I don't use correction collars. Not because the dogs are perfect, or because I am perfect. Neither is true. But, I tend to see training a puppy or dog differently than a lot of people on here seem to.

I see training as communication with another species. You are communicating with the animal what is acceptable, and what is unacceptable, what you want the dog to do, what you do not want the dog to do. It begins when you accept ownership, and from that point on is continuous. A part of training is to teach basic obedience, how to respond in public, how to respond to strangers, how to act with children, where not to go, etc. It is all training.

I do not see a failure of the dog to learn, but a failure to train a specific thing. Which means, I failed to communicate effectively to the dog what I want.

Dogs are really wonderful critters. When they attach themselves to you, they do want to do what it is you want for them to do. The main problem is being effective in communicating what you want.

Now that I know that working a dog "in drive" is simply, effectively preventing a dog from dragging you down the street when it sees a deer or a squirrel, well since that is no problem, I can manage that without a correction collar too. See, I thought maybe that was some type of protection training when a helper is giving the impression that it is coming after you or the dog, and getting the dog way amped up and maybe then I might need something better to get the dog out of the amped up state -- I don't train protection, so I really don't know. But I can call a dog off a squirrel or a deer or a rabbit with voice-control, so I am not really worried about that.

So the way I see it, the dog is a dog, and it has instincts that tell it what to do that are built-in. One of those instincts might be to mark all over the place. Some of those instincts I do not want to live with, so I have to effectively communicate to the dog, to over-come what his instinct tells him to do.

There are things I want a dog to do at any given time. I can communicate with the dog how to do these things using praise and by helping him achieve the position I want. I do this a few times, and soon the dog is doing it reliably. I add in distractions, and soon the dog is doing it here and doing it there and doing it in the presence of a child and doing it in the presence of a dog and doing it in the presence of a parade.

If training is not happening as quickly as I want it to, it is not a failure of the dog to understand and do, but a failure on my part to communicate effectively, and I might have to adjust how I am communicating something. Usually, the dogs learn very fast and are reliable with and without distractions very quickly, using simple praise because we have a relationship of respect and trust. Dogs are natural followers and opportunists. We just have to be leaders.

We have to be leaders -- that bears repeating. A leader is consistent. A leader follows through every single time. A leader communicates effectively. A leader does not repeat themselves. A leader has reasonable expectations. A leader rewards a job well done. When we are good leaders, dogs will follow us, naturally.

This is not true of animals that are not domestic. We have such an easier time training dogs than say, orcas. Trying to correct a killer whale by physically punishing the animal -- how would that work out? And yet they manage to train them, mostly using positive techniques.

If they work for whales, why would it not work for dogs that are a domestic critter and a natural follower. Even an alpha-dog will connect with a human, and if that human projects himself as a good leader, the dog will follow.

A good trainer, can wow a new class of young adult dogs/older puppies who have been brought to class for the first time because now their antics are no longer cute, by taking one of the dogs, and using positive techniques demonstrate the SIT, the DOWN, and even a HEEL. The owner looks at the dog when it is returned to them in awe.

Why does this work. Because the trainer has confidence. The trainer is an unknown entity to the dog, and the dog does what the person wants because it makes sense to them. Some of the positive techniques/hand signals/luring is actually created because the actions are easily, naturally understood by the dog. The treat goes up over the head, so the eyes move up and the butt naturally goes down. Good SIT!

The problems are generally NOT in the dog end of the equation. They are in the people end of the equation. And it doesn't matter if you have trained your last 7 puppies this way and it worked. That does not mean that this dog is defective because he isn't getting it. It means that your method of communication needs to be tweaked for the dog that is in front of you.

I see the problem with training more an impatience on the part of the humans. They get that 8 week pup and ask the breeder, "when can I put a prong collar on him?" Huh? They bring home the pup and on the way way home they stop at the pet store and drag the puppy around. They stop at their friends and relatives homes. They get home and shove a treat in the pup's face and say, "Kerplunga!" The puppy doesn't have a freaking clue! It's shell shocked and done in, and this human now wants me to do something.

We don't bother to get to know the fur ball before we are expecting it to pass a geometry test. We rush out to socialize the puppy before we have even gotten to first base with it. The puppy has no idea whether we are to be trusted or not. Half the time we let other dogs rush right into the pup, bullying them, scaring or even injuring them, and our puppies learn right away that we are NOT to be trusted. They MUST protect themselves.

We think it is funny when the puppy leaps up on us or on friends, and we laugh and pet the puppy. And then we scream at it, rub its nose on the carpet and throw it outside. Our puppy is learning. It is learning that we are crazy and not to be trusted.

One does not have to be a bleeding heart animal-rights person to believe that the responsibility of communication is on the communicator. If the response from the dog is not what we want, then we did not communicate effectively. And unacceptable behavior is more likely because we have been either permissive or inconsistent or corrected unfairly due to unrealistic expectations.

Didn't "orca trainers" have to withhold food over a period of time to gain cooperation? If so, that's hardly mostly positive imop.
 
#14 ·
Just to be the devil's advocate, a lot of horses that are excellent athletes are high energy little devils, some of which are led with a lead shank. I would call it pretty close to a prong or choker - depending on how you look at the correction - in terms of tools. But horses also have to be trained properly in terms of leading. Plenty of horses out there that are total pains and will bolt or do serious damage to you if they've never been taught proper manners. I've had horses try to bite me while I've led them, try to kick me, etc. They will take advantage, just like a dog will. My SIL's dog is a perfect example. She NEVER pulls when I walk her, and she's walked in a harness. Why? Because I just don't let her. She tries to go ahead, I give a small yank and back to my side she goes. No prong, no choke, no verbal correction. Just a reminder and the most minor correction to stay by side. But if she walks with my SIL or my MIL, good luck keeping her controlled.

All in all, I think it comes down to training and to whether or not your training can outweigh the self-rewarding behaviours during a walk.
 
#15 ·
Right a LOT of horses are a pain in the rear. They bite, they kick, they bolt, they pull, they do a lot of things, when they are not trained properly. But they can be trained properly so little kids can handle them without prong collars. Maybe they were originally trained with the equivalent of a prong collar. But they graduated. Too many dogs NEVER graduate -- then it isn't training it is management.

At shows, there are definitely things that are allowed and not allowed. The point is, we can train horses to be sound around people that weigh much less than them.

And yes, a lot of bad behavior happens because we allow it. When someone that has a clue handles the dog, the dog straightens up and flies right.

My point is that we communicate with the dog or we fail to communicate with the dog. It is training. The dog does not fail to learn, we fail to teach. We are the owner, the leader, the human that wants to keep a canine. It is up to us therefore to communicate effectively with the dog. Not the other way around. When we blame ourselves we can maybe make the adjustments that are needed. When we blame the dog, we resort to punishment and management techniques.
 
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#17 ·
I disagree. Every dog is perfect.
My perfect dog is not your perfect dog. Shadow has more issues then Time magazine but I would not trade her for anything.
I love and accept her exactly as she is. Which is what our dogs teach us.
I believe that all pet dogs should be with humans who sincerely believe that they have the very best, most wonderful, perfect dog ever. Because thats how they see us.
 
#18 · (Edited)
People don't use ecollar on horses or prong collars as they are a different animal. The choice of training tools are dependent upon on the sport you ride, the horse you have as you would ride a horse that is is suited to your level of riding and dependent on your desired outcome in training. You would not put a kid or any beginner rider on a horse that is not of their level. Riding or leading peanut the pony or steady Eddie is not the same as riding the great Antares F. The outcome can be death if one skills level is unmatched. The choice of tools in the equestrian world are different then the dog world and are different kind of bits, martingales, lead shanks, spurs ,crops, dressage whips etc. which can be compared to prong collars, slip collars or Electrical wire on paddocks perhaps compared to the ecollar that is if you feel the need to compare a horse to a dog. Horses are completely different animal. Horses are so unbelievably sensitive to any kind of pressure is why we are able to train and ride those magnificent 1500 pound animals. I wonder how it would be if dogs were 1500 pounds.

Sabis mom said it best. I believe all animals are perfect as one can get, if there is such a thing as perfect with a living being. There is no other animal that can be compared to how a dog views it's person. No other animal that wants to make as happy as a dog does. To the dog we are flawless they see our true self. Animals will always expose our inner weakness if we care to look.
 
#19 · (Edited)
Okay speaking of imperfect owners- me myself and I. Yesterday we took out 8 month old pup to the bay. Luna was off leash we had the whole place to ourself. It was a girl only outing. There was a big pier/jetty made out of rock. I thought I would practice with different surfaces and had Luna jump on one of the tall rocks jetting out from the jetty. My very smart daughter saying not a good idea she will climb up the wall as she noticed she wanted to. Luna decided to scale the huge rock wall. Stood up at the top of the pier grinning at us I could not speak my heart was in my throat she scaled down the other side of the pier where it was only canal water. No sand on the other side. Luna likes the water but had not been warm quite enough for me to go in and make sure she can swim. I thought i had a heart attack. Quickly climbing the jetty I'm glad my daughter was with me as she was much faster. Luna was half in the water half in the rock just smiling waiting for us to come join her. We went down and all climbed up the slippery jetty. She was as happy as a clam unphased. It was dumb I know -she could of gotten hurt, broke a leg through the cracks or drowned I did under estimate her she loves her water and loves to rock climb. It turned out okay and quite the adventure and a bonding moment. we did have fun but could of been a different story. I did make a big mistake and it was not my first it is how we learn.
 
#24 ·
Sometimes reading training literature it comes off like dogs are Operant or Classical Conditioning Robots. The only reason they don't do what we want is because we didn't condition them enough with treats.
I see dogs as intelligent beings who make up their own minds about things. They take advantage and try to get their own way. Our job is to help them see that our way is better, and if we can't, keep them safe for their own good.

I remember once upon a time when I could open my door and let my dog out to wander and roam. We don't live in a place like that anymore. Like it or not they have to respect the fence and it's gates. We never allow the dogs out the gates unleashed. They respect the rule. That does not mean that I'd leave the gate open and expect them to stay inside. I know they'd test going through. So how would you communicate to the dog that even if the gate is open that you cannot go through? Treats? Corrections? What if I'm not at the gate to enforce the rule?

Perfection is hard to attain. Cooperation for the most part is doable.


 
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#25 ·
Sometimes reading training literature it comes off like dogs are Operant or Classical Conditioning Robots. The only reason they don't do what we want is because we didn't condition them enough with treats.
I see dogs as intelligent beings who make up their own minds about things. They take advantage and try to get their own way. Our job is to help them see that our way is better, and if we can't, keep them safe for their own good.

I remember once upon a time when I could open my door and let my dog out to wander and roam. We don't live in a place like that anymore. Like it or not they have to respect the fence and it's gates. We never allow the dogs out the gates unleashed. They respect the rule. That does not mean that I'd leave the gate open and expect them to stay inside. I know they'd test going through. So how would you communicate to the dog that even if the gate is open that you cannot go through? Treats? Corrections? What if I'm not at the gate to enforce the rule?

Perfection is hard to attain. Cooperation for the most part is doable.


Another, Oh, you're using treats if your not using a prong collar, but whatever.

When I was very young we had a puppy. Mom wanted the puppy to be only allowed in the kitchen. She stationed two kids at the two doors, and every time the puppy tried to go out the door into the dining room or hallway, were were to say, No. and not let the puppy through. It didn't take long, and that dog never left the kitchen when it was inside. No prong collars. No treats. No physical punishment. And the learning was for the rest of its life. People used to know how to train dogs.

That dog was an outside dog. But my parents would let him in in the winter if it was cold. He stayed in the kitchen, because he was taught to.

Later, their English Setter and then Cujo was trained not to go into the basement the same way.

And we used to walk a dog along the permimeter of the property and if it stepped off of it, we would pull the dog back and say, No! Our yard! We trained dogs to stay in the yard whether we were out there or not, without e-collars or prong collars.

I don't use a leash in my front yard, because my dogs are under voice control. But I do not leave them out in the front yard, unless I am out there because there is no fence. I trained the first two to stay on the property, but then I got lazy.

It was nice to be able to just let them out the door. But since then I fenced the back and with the kennels and doggy doors, it just isn't necessary anymore to train them to stay in the yard. Also, it isn't considerate to anyone who might walk down my road. There are no sidewalks. But they do not know my dogs will stay.
 
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#26 ·
:confused: I don't know what you're talking about. My dog is perfect. ;)

Just kidding.

But not really. I think the most anyone can ask for is do the very best you can with what you have, what you know, and how you feel. Seek out more knowledge all the time and be patient. Training doesn't occur in a vacuum. There is no perfect dog in the same way that there is no perfect person.
 
#30 ·
BTW, Kojak IS perfect. We made it up to the vet and then to the park and back home without any barf. Since that was his only problem, he is now perfect.

At least for today.

I think the more experience you have with different dogs, the more "perfect" future dogs are, behavior-wise.
 
#44 ·
thank you, I think we pretty much have covered the topic of which tool is best, worst, and it depends. I don't think anyone is going to change their mind if what they are currently doing is working. It is nice to hear that there is more than one way to do something. That is because there is no perfect way.

Honestly, if we haven't figured out the perfect way to teach and motivate other humans what makes us think we've found the perfect way to teach and motivate dogs?

I think I'll take my imperfect dogs out to practice a little tracking and article practice because ...drat...they aren't perfect at it yet. :wink2:
 
#32 ·
"If they work for whales, why would it not work for dogs that are a domestic critter and a natural follower. Even an alpha-dog will connect with a human, and if that human projects himself as a good leader, the dog will follow."

It may work for whales in a concrete tank. I wonder how it would work to train an Orca to behave in an actual ocean? While seals were swimming by?
 
#34 ·
I can just imagine the positive only people with their pet orcas convincing themselves that fish jerky and/or praise alone will trump a live sea lion swimming by... "Swimmy, come, mom's got a cookie"...nope. I used to think training marine mammals was kind of cool, now I think it disrespects the animals and knowing how social killer whales are, it's simply cruel to keep them in captivity. There's evidence that most killer whales in captivity have mental illness.

Killer whale sons stay with their mothers for life, and live for 80 years or even more. Each pod or subgroup has culture and rudimentary language. Scientist believe they are at least as intelligent as great apes.

Dogs have co-evolved with humans, for something like 30,000 years. Meaning it is written in their genes to want to please and work with man. Killer whales, marine mammals, tigers, elephants, are all somewhat tamed, but never domesticated. People certainly do not use positive methods to train tigers or elephants. What they do to tame elephants is not kind or gentle at all. Tigers are notorious for taking a bite out of their "trainers".

Dogs are unique among companion domestic animals in that they actually want to work for you, they crave working with their people, in fact they usually prefer human company to that of other dogs. They are vastly different than a wild animal. Build a working language with them, and that includes praise and punishment, and you'll have an incredible dog you can train to do almost anything.
 
#37 ·
Prong collars can not be worn in an IPO trial, only a "fur saver" collar. No corrections are allowed at an IPO trial. In IPO 3 obedience and protection work is done off lead, including reporting in and getting your critique. Even in the BH, IPO 1, and IPO 2 there is an off lead obedience portion.

We all need to do what works best for our dogs and gets the results we want. I can work Boomer off lead with out any collar and he is extremely well trained and reliable. I do not train that way, because I always have a "plan B." I always have a means of ensuring an accurate and precise performance. Plan A, all goes according to plan there is a reward. If things do not go according to plan there is Plan B which guarantees the proper result. Anything less than that is poor training, IMO. I have high expectations for my dogs and expect a high performance everyday, day in and day out in all environments and extremes. When I take my dog out of my car for work or a demo I expect a happy, highly driven and highly motivated dog that wants to work regardless of the task. You do not achieve this by relying on corrections or compulsion, it is obtained by the relationship and the drive and desire to work with me. I use a prong collar, an E collar and even a nylon slip collar depending on the dog and what I am training. Boomer has worked for almost 10 years in both sport and LE work and wore a prong collar every day. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that used properly. I understand the need to maintain a high work ethic and joy in the work for a dog. For me this a critical and pivotal aspect of my everyday training. I have been able to maintain a GSD with the horsepower of a Ferrari with just the right amount of brakes to maintain control. The right tools and training make this possible.

We agree on certain things and I like your positive approach, I use the same methods only with dogs that need more control for what I do. There is no positive only method for serious dog handlers/ trainers.
 
#38 ·
Not sure who is talking about positive only.

See, this is what I mean. You are either using correction collars or are a positive-only wacko stuffing treats at your dog for everything. So tired of it.
 
#39 ·
It goes both ways though. Your either a positive only wacko or your an animal abuser. Not saying you selzer but a lot of people see correction collars and think animal abuse. I think this is where people get "positive only ". Just the impression that some people give off. And it isn't that they're positive only they just don't approve of someone else's method of correction.
There is a similar issue with child discipline. Some see a child getting their bottom spanked as abuse and think nothing of mentally or verbally abusing their child. But think I don't hit my child so I'm better than the parents who will spank their child then give them a hug to let them know they're OK.
 
#40 ·
My beef is with the idea that the collars are necessary. I never said they were abusive. I don't think. I've seen someone abuse their dog with training, wasn't with a collar.

People say, that you couldn't manage MY dog without one. Not necessarily so. They say that you cannot get a dog trained reliably without them. Not necessarily so. People put forth all forms of excuses, and they don't need excuses. If there is nothing wrong with the collar, why make excuses for them? In the process of making excuses, they suggest that they need more control, thus your dog doesn't; they aren't strong enough, they want higher functioning, your dog is retarded or not showing correct GSD temperament; that their dog has high drives, yours is a pansy picking butterfly chaser. Whatever.

The idea is, if you don't need a prong, your dog isn't right. My point is that if you do need a prong than maybe your leadership and training needs improvement. And, I don't know that when we keep the training wheels on the bicycle, we get any better at balancing.
 
#41 ·
The idea is, if you don't need a prong, your dog isn't right. My point is that if you do need a prong than maybe your leadership and training needs improvement. And, I don't know that when we keep the training wheels on the bicycle, we get any better at balancing.

This is where you are mistaken and this is where we differ and disagree. This is the point that I am getting very weary of.

I understand that for what you do with your dogs, a prong is not necessary. Your dogs work with out treats or a prong, from what I gather you don't like either of those. Some folks have dogs that appreciate a treat and some folks have dogs that need the finesse a prong collar offers. I realize that some of us work our dogs differently and in different venues. If what you do works for you that is awesome, it doesn't work for everyones dog.
 
#45 ·
Yep, this is where we disagree. It doesn't work for everyone. It would probably work for everyone's dog. And I said maybe. I am not talking about the 12 to 15 people in the country who are using a prong to get a little more finesse. I am talking about the million that are using them to keep the dog from pulling their arm out of the socket when they see another dog, or drag them down the street.

Slamdunc, you have seen dogs that you feel need a prong. I have taken dogs that people have said need a prong, and have worked them and managed them just fine without one. I guess my experience tells me that most of the people out there THINK their dog needs this level of correction and are flat out wrong. The dog is getting a level of correction because its owner is giving the dog mixed signals and taught the dog to ignore them.

While I don't necessarily think it is abuse. I do think people use the tool to give an undeserved level of correction a lot of the time. And a lot of those dogs are like the guy who walks half a dozen dogs with no leashes through town, with all of them stuck to him, afraid to be out of position because the guy trains them with e-collars and zaps the crap out of them.

Some tools are easier to abuse than others. And yes, prongs and e-collars can be abused. Like the lady in Chicago who had a bunch of them around the dog paying attention to the dog's genitals. Sicko. But I don't want them banned, and I don't think most people are abusing their dogs with them. I just don't buy all the excuses for using them.
 
#42 ·
Positive only may be great for someone who only wants their dog to sit, stand, roll whatever. But when you have a dog that HAS to perform his task regardless of the environment (i.e. police/mwd) you're going to have to train that dog with a balanced approach. Positive only isn't going to cut it. Those dogs have to perform at their best or there's more at stake than most of us are going to deal with. Even just a pet dog should be trained this way. I mean sure you can teach him to wait at the door without bolting out using treats but someday he could decide hey I'm not getting treats for this anymore so to he** with it and bolt out the door and get hit by a car.
 
#47 ·
The ole "balanced approach." LOL! Not sure I buy that either. See when PO training came out, a lot of trainers thought that was flat out nuts. Many of them started with the Koehler method, choke chains, yank and crank, even hang the dog to unconsciousness. So, the purely positive, or positive only was the opposite of that. We use a treat and motivate the dog to do what we want, yay! And then people were training using treats, and when necessary corrections. And others were telling them they were wrong to use ANY corrections, they should not even tell the dog "No." So then we had trainers saying they use a "balanced approach."

But what is "balanced"? That suggests that you use reward/praise/motivation 1/2 of the time, and correction/punishment 1/2 the time. And that would be terrible training.

You want to motivate the dog to work with you, the work being the reward, it is time with you, attention on the dog, using the dog's instincts, and give some praise or other rewards. I know police don't generally like to use food rewards, but will use a tug or ball as a reward. The majority of the training, 90-95% of the training should be fun and successful, which builds confidence and builds the working bond between the handler and the dog. The corrections or negative markers improve communication when necessary, because it really isn't helpful to let a dog get away with a piss-poor performance simply because you do not want to tell him, eh-eh, get it in, and try that again, until you have it right. It is actually more abusive in my opinion to let a dog languish in an unwanted state or habit, until you can "work" through it with time and distance, etc., when you can give the dog a stern correction (for the dog -- could be physical or verbal) and stop the nonsense.

Now if you are training a dog for regular work, like herding, police work, military work, service dog, etc., it is more important to have that communication bond. Police and military are a little different, because you have to have a dog that is hard, that will come right back after a correction, who will continue to fight even if punched or kicked by an assailant. But most of the police dog handlers that I have met, have made the dog's toy incredibly high value. They motivate their dogs by making that reward an achievement on the part of the dog. Where pet people are stuffing treats into their 2 year old dog's mouth for sitting. The police dog handler works that motivational toy so that the dog has to perform hurdles, find dope, successful track, etc, to actually get the toy.

This is why they pick police dogs to be strong, hard, dogs, with excellent drives. They want a strong play drive, so they can get that dog to work and not quit to get its toy, its tug, its ball, whatever.

And this is where working-line people should have an advantage over show-lines as show lines tend to have less drive. So, training the WL dogs should be a lot easier, and yes with just motivating the dog with the attention, the job, and the reward of a toy or treat after the job is done. If you have a dog that doesn't have that drive, you aren't going to instill it into them with a correction collar. You start with the drive, and build the drive and confidence.

Yes, I don't like treats Slamdunc, for the same reasons I don't like prongs or e-collars: I can't use them in the ring, and people don't graduate from them. In a perfect world, people will load their praise with treats, and by the end of the set of classes, the dog is working for praise, not treats. Some use treats to train new behaviors, lure a dog to new behaviors. We should be able to do that without the treat.

I give my dogs treats. Today, I was slicing up chicken breast and I walked over into the living room and flipped a hunk to Jenna and dropped on to the puppy both of whom caught it, then I walked down the hall and flipped one to Quinnie and one to Babs. Both caught them. I felt pretty good that I was able to get a hunk of chicken into each of them without one of them getting double and having to go back and get another piece and slip it to the one that got none. And with puppies that are not barfy, we stop at McDonalds and a cheeseburger/plain is a great treat for doggies after class. Mine are pretty picky and don't like the ice-milk from McDonalds, so we might do Dairy Queen for a treat. I am just not a fan of making the dog work for treats.

Sit, treat. Sit, treat. Come, treat. Down, treat. Ok, that's fine, but at some time, we should be weaning that. The dog gets praise but no treat for slow work, and treats only for the best performance. String a group of commands together and if they are all done properly the dog gets the treat. I guess I don't like the idea of making treats so high of value to the dog. I do the same thing with praise. Sit, Good Girl. Sit, Good Girl. Come, Good girl, what a good girl you are. Down, good. And then we start expecting the sit, the come, the down, and we just praise for the best performance, or after a group of performances. I like, the term, "yes." or "Yes!" for doing something right. And I like to say, "thank you" when I tell them do do something and they do it, immediately and properly. So if we are trying to figure something out, and they get it, "Yes! Good Girl!" and we do it again, and if it is right, Yes! We do not need treats, they want to hear that Yes! Thank you is more for something that we know well, but they did well and thank you seems appropriate.

And there is nothing wrong with, telling your dog to finish and she starts to go to your left and then lays her butt down, for you to say, "eh-eh" and set her up again, and say "FINISH" a little more pronounced. If she does the same thing, then, again, eh-eh, but you set her up and guide her into the correct position and sit, Yes. Good girl! Try again, and she does it right -- she gets it, YES!!! Good girl!!! And then we move on.
 
#49 ·
Ok, I dare you, go up to the next 10 people you see sporting a prong collar on their dog, and ask them how they are using all 4 quadrants in proportion to their need, with their dog.
 
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