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No BYB-ing for me

5K views 60 replies 26 participants last post by  wolfy dog 
#1 ·
Deja is in season at 3.5 years old. She is everything I ever wanted in a dog; beauty, intelligence, intensity, health, obedience, intuitive etc. Her hips were checked as a 9 month old and determined healthy without OFA certification later. I look at her and feel like it is such a waste not to breed her and would have loved a male pup from her. But I am not going to breed her. And I want to let you know why: she comes from a good breeder who knows what he is doing and is known for it. He wasn't interested to breed someone elses dog, including from his own lines, due to bad past experiences. If I were to breed Deja, where would I find the people who will be great owners for all of her (possibly 10+) pups? Do I want to run the risk of something happening to her in her pregnancy or birth or afterwards? (NO!).
Do I have the facility, energy to take back several adolescent pups from her if, for some reason, they din't work out and/or have developed troublesome behavior? (NO!)
Because of all these uncertainties and the NOs, I won't be a BYB, no matter how in awe I am over my own dog.
If I decide to get a male GSD pup, I won't breed Deja but will go back to her breeder and get a sound pup without having had all the heartache of raising a BYB litter.
I hope that this helps keep people from breeding their dogs just because they love them or want to experience a litter. If you do want to experience a litter, foster a pregnant shelter dog. I did this years ago and it made me realize what a responsibility this is. I kept a detailed journal in which I wrote that I would never create a litter, even though everything went well and I enjoyed every moment of it. If you do it right, your life is on hold for three months. In these same three months you can raise a new pup very effectively.
 
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#51 ·
good luck wolfy. breaks my heart when i see threads on here asking about breeding their pet dog. if you have to ask about breeding you shouldn't be doing it, period. i never reply to those because i have a hard time being truthful without being rude. i leave it to you guys.
That seems like a pretty narrow view. I don't think there's a thing wrong with breeding your pet if you are doing it with the knowledge and guidance of your dog's breeder and they are on board. I would never do it without my dog's breeder saying they would like to bring the dog into their program - but if that's the case, nothing wrong with it. I would still imagine you'd have lots of questions. Breeding is high stakes. I'd rather have someone who has interest and dedication admit they don't know things, ask the questions, learn, and do a really good job than never breed a litter. It would be stupid, and a waste, to never have those contributions.
 
#4 ·
Well my dog will stay in my property without leaving he knows sit, down, and can shake. so he's super smart. He also goes berserk whenever a stranger gets with in 1/2 mile of my house so he is probably the best watch dog in the world. He can also carry really big sticks all by himself so he is super super strong. He has bitten my father and brother when they laughed too loud so he's super protective of his house. Because of all of these things I will breed my dog to the first female that we have access to that is in heat.

That is the crap everyone posts when they want to breed their pet.
 
#5 ·
Pretty much! That's part of the reason I'm so glad I picked up my nearly 3 yeard old GSD this December. They were advertising her as having breeding rights(she doesn't) and all that. She's getting spayed today, might have already had the operation actually. Went into heat the first week we had her even! If somebody else had gotten her I'm 99% sure she'd already be having a litter of puppies right now since those were the people responding to the ad were mostly interested in, never mind that she's not a great breeding candidate.

People are enamored by the idea of puppies, their 'perfect' dog and a lack of realism to their dog, and/or selling said puppies to get money.

I have 2 females and while I would love to have puppies, could even think of some combinations that might get some puppies I would like, I know it isn't a good idea. I don't have top of the line dogs(besides our neutered mastiff) and I wouldn't be helping them, the females, or myself by breeding them.

Kudos to you for not breeding your pup OP.
 
#6 ·
Wolfy dog,

How long will you keep your bitch intact ?

I have a 4 1/2 year intact bitch.....decided to try it differently than my first 2 bitches....both spayed pretty much immediately.

I've had a few offers to breed her and it made me chuckle......when I tell them "no".....they ask why....I tell them it would put her on the bench for a while and interfere with our daily backyard games....they walk away shaking their heads.....dummies.


SuperG
 
#41 ·
Struddell my "White Boxer" was at least four or five before I had her fixed. And I only had her fixed at all ... because ... I thought ... that is what "responsible owners do???" But no ... "responsible" dog owners do what I'd already been doing, they keep there intact dogs from making "puppies???" It was only my fear of "ACE" with "Boxers" ( a commonly used anesthetic) that can easily "Kill Boxers" that had me putting "Spaying" off. But it took me four years to understand that I could talk to my Vet and say "No Ace is to be used on "My Boxer" and he said ... no problem. :)

But in all honesty ... way way way back then. I did not know what a "BYB" was??? But what I did know was that "if" I would have bred "Struddell" maybe possibly I'd have sold one puppy??? I understood ... that I am emotionally "ill equipped" to be a "Breeder!" And that fact kept me from stumbling into the "BYB" thing. The fact that 70% of Boxers carry the gene for developing "DM???" Is something I did not know either???

One clear and one carrier is "apparently acceptable??" I had no idea at the time??? Six or Seven puppies that could developed full blown "DM???" I dodged a bullet!

Still now that she is gone ... I'd luv to have had a "Struddell" puppy but you know such is life ... better for the breed ... that I don't ... I suppose.

At any rate my next female Boxer or dog won't be fixed and won't be having puppies ... "Responsible Owners" keep there "intact females from getting pregnant. That ... I already know how to do. :)
 
#7 ·
With the continued popularity of the breed, it is becoming an absolute nightmare for just a normal owner like me to source a responsible breeder. It requires a lot of homework and is not helped when the internet is full of cute puppy pictures who can easily be bought by those who don't want to do the research. I have only bought one puppy from a breeder and my gorgeous girl was exactly how I expected her to be but i feel that maybe I got lucky. That was 12 years ago. So this time, i got my pup from a GSD rescue, she had been assessed and I am in constant contact with them, because they want to know how their 'baby' is getting on. @Wolfydog it is really good to hear someone say that they have a lovely shepherd but that is not a reason to breed them.

I also do not understand those that advertise their much loved mature family pets that have to be rehomed due to a change in circumstance... and by the way could you pay for them.
 
#20 ·
With the continued popularity of the breed, it is becoming an absolute nightmare for just a normal owner like me to source a responsible breeder. It requires a lot of homework and is not helped when the internet is full of cute puppy pictures who can easily be bought by those who don't want to do the research. I have only bought one puppy from a breeder and my gorgeous girl was exactly how I expected her to be but i feel that maybe I got lucky. That was 12 years ago. So this time, i got my pup from a GSD rescue, she had been assessed and I am in constant contact with them, because they want to know how their 'baby' is getting on. @Wolfydog it is really good to hear someone say that they have a lovely shepherd but that is not a reason to breed them.

I also do not understand those that advertise their much loved mature family pets that have to be rehomed due to a change in circumstance... and by the way could you pay for them.
The alternative "mature GSD for free" is nightmarish - an owner who can't pay for a dog can't provide health care, and free to a good home can actually be free fodder for a dog fighting ring. They steal dogs for their fights, they'd happily scour the ads for free dogs - which is why one doesn't see "Free to a good home" much anymore.
 
#8 ·
I have told this exact same speech to folks when they found out that our second pup was a female instead of another male. "Oh, are you going to breed them?" I try not to smirk. As a pup I wouldn't know enough about her to know if she would have the traits a good mother should have to pass on. I never told people that. The rest of the speech is almost word for word what Wolfy wrote, except that I've never fostered a pregnant mom-dog.
 
#9 ·
It is almost an immediate response from people when they find out you have a male and female
Well be out in a store and people will ask when I am gonna breed them. I tell them I'm not and it's 80% the same response. "that's money right there". I have had a couple people stop at my fence while I have had the dogs out training or playing asking if I was a breeder. I always tell them "God no" and they usually respond that if I ever do they live so and so and they really want a pup.
Since I started training IPO I have had three different people stop at my fence asking if I was a professional trainer. They need their dog trained. It's the focus heel that makes them assume I'm a trainer. That's the only bad part of having 200 feet of road side chain link fence in town. Everyone goes by staring.
 
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#12 ·
It is almost an immediate response from people when they find out you have a male and female
Well be out in a store and people will ask when I am gonna breed them. I tell them I'm not and it's 80% the same response. "that's money right there". I have had a couple people stop at my fence while I have had the dogs out training or playing asking if I was a breeder. I always tell them "God no" and they usually respond that if I ever do they live so and so and they really want a pup.
Since I started training IPO I have had three different people stop at my fence asking if I was a professional trainer. They need their dog trained. It's the focus heel that makes them assume I'm a trainer. That's the only bad part of having 200 feet of road side chain link fence in town. Everyone goes by staring.
Yep, when I was ten years old, and my neighbor, who was a couple of days younger than me, got a Newfoundland puppy, probably my first question was, "are you going to breed him." She looked at me like I had two heads.

The funny thing is, no one in my family had ever been a breeder or bred dogs or anything else, not to that point anyway. I have never known anyone who had. Not sure why that was my first thought. People have been giving others the stink-eye over that question for decades. The question isn't disgusting. Why not just answer it respectfully. Yes, he is beautiful, no, I don't have any plans of breeding. Why is that so hard?
 
#10 ·
One should not breed lightly. People do need to have time and space, and also be willing to commit to finding proper homes for their puppies. And to commit to the puppies, if those homes become unavailable. Breeding certainly isn't for everyone.

That said, I don't condemn people, yes even pet owners, when they choose to breed their dog and have a litter of puppies. Why? Because, the demand for puppies has not gone down. The number of people willing and able to breed has. And in the gap have grown the large volume breeders.

Large volume breeders may have one breed or dozens of breeds. They have hundreds of dogs. Those dogs may live in USDA-approved settings. USDA does not mean sterile and spacious. It means the bare-bones minimum of space and care. And in everyone of those situations, it takes no more than days for it to go from acceptable to neglectful and even cruel. All of the breeding dogs have an unsatisfactory existence. Many more are working under the radar with hundreds of dogs, cages on top of cages, tiny enclosures with groups of dogs, open wounds, poop everywhere, and even dead dogs lying in the enclosures with live dogs and puppies.

I think that the attitude of leaving it to the professionals, has sustained these operations, and the only way to put them out of business completely is for more amateurs -- those that are beyond the average pet owner, students of the breeds, and participants in the dog community, will choose to take up the torch dropped or passed on by those who no longer can carry it.

It takes a level of maturity to know if you can do this or that you really aren't set up or capable of it. It certainly isn't for everyone. And a lot of the small breeders are simply pet breeders who know no more about genetics or nutrition or training or even about their breed, so inadvertently, but expectedly they do often perpetuate problems. I think we have to help them improve what they are doing rather than simply condemning them.

The reason the conformation ring does not allow animals to be shown that are altered, is because the point of showing dogs is breeding and reproducing dogs. It's not just a beauty contest. It is an attempt at passing on the best genetics. It seems that the people that would probably make excellent breeders, in an effort to embrace some ideal that has roots in the AR/HSUS agenda, are the people who choose not to, leaving the breed to the less involved pet-owners, and the large-scale breeders.
 
#16 ·
It is up to the buyers to change it. But that will never happen, I bet 80% of the people that own a GSD have no clue what lines the dog is from, much less actually seek out a breeder because of the genetics they are breeding. At least that is the case in my area. Most dogs are mixed up pet lines regardless.
 
#18 ·
When I got my first GSD I looked at a pet litter in someone's back yard. The puppies were cute, it was close by but something was off. I decided not to rush into it and found a quality breeder. I knew nothing about good breeding then, I went on instinct. So why would that many people buy just because they can without doing any research? I don't get it.
 
#17 ·
selzer said
"That said, I don't condemn people, yes even pet owners, when they choose to breed their dog and have a litter of puppies. Why? Because, the demand for puppies has not gone down. The number of people willing and able to breed has. And in the gap have grown the large volume breeders"
and
"leaving it to the professionals, has sustained these operations, and the only way to put them out of business completely is for more amateurs -- those that are beyond the average pet owner, students of the breeds, and participants in the dog community, will choose to take up the torch dropped or passed on by those who no longer can carry it. "

and --- contradictory

"a lot of the small breeders are simply pet breeders who know no more about genetics or nutrition or training or even about their breed, so inadvertently, but expectedly they do often perpetuate problems."

there is no shortage of GSD . no shortage of dogs. Breeding isn't a commercial cottage industry or franchise opportunity . A breeder should be very well versed in genetics , breed standards, lines and have a hands on experience with training and evaluations.

selzer "I think we have to help them improve what they are doing rather than simply condemning them. "

or stop them ! who is the "we" . What help? What goal end result?

first there has to be a deep and genuine interest which can sustain itself over time without gratification.

train. trial. show. be mentored . earn your chops . FIRST
 
#22 ·
selzer said
"That said, I don't condemn people, yes even pet owners, when they choose to breed their dog and have a litter of puppies. Why? Because, the demand for puppies has not gone down. The number of people willing and able to breed has. And in the gap have grown the large volume breeders"
and
"leaving it to the professionals, has sustained these operations, and the only way to put them out of business completely is for more amateurs -- those that are beyond the average pet owner, students of the breeds, and participants in the dog community, will choose to take up the torch dropped or passed on by those who no longer can carry it. "

and --- contradictory

"a lot of the small breeders are simply pet breeders who know no more about genetics or nutrition or training or even about their breed, so inadvertently, but expectedly they do often perpetuate problems."

there is no shortage of GSD . no shortage of dogs. Breeding isn't a commercial cottage industry or franchise opportunity . A breeder should be very well versed in genetics , breed standards, lines and have a hands on experience with training and evaluations.

selzer "I think we have to help them improve what they are doing rather than simply condemning them. "

or stop them ! who is the "we" . What help? What goal end result?

first there has to be a deep and genuine interest which can sustain itself over time without gratification.

train. trial. show. be mentored . earn your chops . FIRST
Good breeders also produce health problems. We, this board, dog people in general, could actually help people do better, rather than just condemning them. Because condemning them with are hyper-half insane AR regurgitated rhetoric, just makes people think we are crazy. People don't change what they are going to do because some crazy zealot tells them they are going to the Fiery Pit.

In many cases, by helping and not condemning, people will find that it is more involved than they thought and give up on the idea -- better than zealot-crap. Others may take the help and do a better job of it.

What I see as the problem is the high volume breeders. Breeders with hundreds of bitches in foul conditions, selling to strangers in pet stores or over the internet. The dogs that live like princesses in families that have a litter of puppies are at least not being pooped on by the dog in the cage above her.
 
#19 ·
I'll start with ...I'm glad there are those who choose to deal with breeding.....after that....I have absolutely no interest whatsoever....I want a pup....I go get a pup.....I assume the responsible breeders have a true passion for the "science".....good for them....seriously.

I just want a dog that I can share my life with....it's really just that simple.


SuperG
 
#24 ·
Honestly I'd say the majority of the shelter dog populations would get better if we could get more responsible people breeding dogs. If we educated and guided people instead of just condemning them we could get more at least slightly higher quality dogs with people doing their best to find good homes for them. If the average buyer was better informed they would look for more responsible breeders and there would begin to be an expectation for minimum health tests such as OFA certification.

Many people I've talked to with GSDs or just any other dog have never even heard of hip dysplasia let alone DM or any other genetic disorder, or are aware that it is a problem. They don't know that parvo is a very big deal, because they've never been educated on it. They get dogs because they grew up with dogs or they have always wanted one. They aren't aware there is more to it. Start educating the general public and things might have a chance to change. I get told all the time I have well behaved dogs, I'd beg to differ. But then again my dog knows how to sit!
 
#26 ·
Most people have no idea about Bybs and then there are those who don't see the problem with it, after all spending $1,500 + for a dog would be ridiculous, they just want a pet not some show dog and make it a straight back please!

Bybs probably make up the larger percentage of dogs with issues, however most bybs will live relatively trouble fee lives. They won't be the ideal representatives of the breed, but they will do fine in their pet home. Because of this people will return to the same route where they got the last one.
 
#27 ·
Breeders have to start somewhere. Most of us who read a lot here and have learned probably know enough to become breeders if we had the right breeding stock and set up, and an offline mentor. I have a good friend now who started breeding long before I met her. She has been breeding for thirty years. She started with an excellent female and the breeder of her dog mentored her until she had enough experience to go out on her own. We are acting like responsible breeding is impossible. My friend is still a hobby breeder. No more than 1-2 litters a year. Her dogs have no more than 2-3 litters, then they stay on as pets. At one time she had a dozen German Shepherds. If she was starting out and read this board she never would have started.
 
#30 ·
Breeders have to start somewhere.
While I agree with this with most things. Breeding animals isn't one of them.

If you need to start somewhere - it should be with an experienced breeder/kennel - as a handler, or dog washer, or pooper scooper, whatever. Grow from there and learn from others with experience.

Being a good dog owner won't make you a good breeder anymore than being a good babysitter will make you a good parent. :)

I dunno - maybe I just have higher expectations/standards than most.

One thing I've learned since looking for a new pup this year is - BYB breeding with GSDs is a HUGE problem and heavily to blame for the joint and temperament issues the GSD have developed over the last decade or so. (and unfairly so for the dog breed as a whole)

We've been totally stressing over who/what/where for almost a year in our pup search... It will all be worth it in the end. :)
 
#28 · (Edited)
Forgot to quote Super G about when I plan on spaying Deja.
Not sure. Breeder and several vets in The Netherlands where I am originally from have said that the chances of mammary cancer or pyo are not that huge as often stated. I will play it by ear. Surgery and the loss of hormones is also a risk.
 
#31 ·
I'm a procrastinator by nature....but have probably been more proactive about my dogs' health than my own in certain ways......however....I feel no rush to spay my bitch.....so...I am probably much the same as you....." play it by ear"......I just hope my ear is tuned in....I think you know what I mean.


SuperG
 
#29 ·
I know I've told this story before, because it is so incredible to me.

I was in a class put on by my vet, up town and open to all new puppy owners. No dogs or puppies, the class was basically to help new puppy owners and do a little education without the dogs. It wasn't a bad idea, actually. I think it was two or three days, and they had an officer with a police dog come in -- there was good stuff.

Anyway, I got to talking to this woman who said she worked at the shelter in our county. Ok. She said she just got a GSD puppy. I was like kool, where did you get him? She told me she got him at the pet store in the Erie mall. The disappointment must have shown on my face, because she quickly said, she would never go to a breeder.

The pet store in the Erie mall, at least at the time, wasn't a place that homed rescue or shelter dogs. They had puppies in small cages, the small cages designed to make you and me cringe and want to get that puppy out of there.

How can a shelter worker know better than to support a breeder, but buy a dog in a mall pet store? I could have told her she just supported a puppy mill. But why? The dog was already hers. I wasn't going to help her understand about good breeders and bad breeders and how breeders who let strangers sell their puppies are puppy mills.

And I thought that shutting down pet stores that sold puppies would be the answer to getting rid of puppy mills. Nope. Now the internet is booming with puppy sales from places that would make your skin crawl.
 
#32 ·
** As per the new rule, any discussions with pitbulls is banned (except in the original post about possible BSL). These discussions eventually lead to bickering. Since we are tired of editing, your entire post was removed. Since this is a new rule, I am only posting a public warning. Next time you will go on suspension.

Thank you,
ADMIN Lisa
 
#34 ·
excuses and ignorance only hurts the puppies and dogs. IF people would actually spend some time doing their homework before committing to a purchase, they may actually have a successful pairing. I know many have no idea what they are getting into when a puppy arrives, they ask about housetraining, they have no idea about nutrition or vaccination protocols, let alone the actual breed they are wanting.

IF they had to jump through some hoops before they were approved to even purchase a puppy, they may not end up with a dog that is too much for them.
This is where the breeders come in.
Not just breeding willy nilly, but actually interviewing and getting to know a bit about the potential buyer. Yes it takes time, yes it is frustrating to weed through the ones that have to be educated and then denied. BUT this is what a good committed breeder does.

I give responsible breeders a ton of respect for what they have to deal with. The breeder that breeds seldom does so for their own program(keeping a pup for the foundation) and isn't concerned with how the market or demand for puppies is. Yet they have to deal with it because of the many inquiries they get when people learn about the next upcoming litter(even if it hasn't been announce publicly) Those waiting forever for a puppy from a good breeder tend to 'stalk' them!
 
#39 ·
All of my dogs have come from Byb. With Rosko and Athena I hit jackpot. Apollo is still up in the air. If I were just raising pets and my dogs weren't expected to function in public. then Apollo would be a perfect dog. But that is what most normal pet owners want. A dog that can function around the house and bark and look mean when needed. Sport people want the total opposite. They want the super high drive dogs that would be destructive and impossible in a pet only home. As I think someone above stated. Even a lot of sport wash outs are too intense for pet homes. So my next pup will be from an established breeder simply because of the type of dog I will be looking for. And price. I don't know anyone that wants to pay 1500 for a pet. Most have a hard time paying 500.00
 
#42 ·
There are FB groups about mix breeders and several members test their dogs for health issues. They often have interesting mixes, mostly for sports like
Whippet X Border Colie, Pappilon X Jack Russell etc and they don't call them these idiotic names.
 
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