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Book by Doc

18K views 106 replies 41 participants last post by  CarolinaRose 
#1 ·
Doc from this forum wrote a book called Reflections From the Dog House.

I haven't finished it completely but it is a good read.

Lots of general information and history. Also practical advice for owners.

He also manages to step on many toes,
but if one keeps an open mind there is a lot of common sense to his discussion of extremes.

There are a few people on this forum mentioned in the book but I won't say who.


Anyway I think some of you would get a lot out of it.

For the record I do not know Doc personally and there is no financial interest or connection between us.
 
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#69 ·
I was laughing about the Misinformation Thursday reference. As someone who loves working lines, I am a bit perturbed, but do not feel insulted by the preferences of others for the Swabian lines. I think my dogs are more Thuringian, which I prefer. Are working lines considered more Thuringian?
 
#70 ·
There is a fine line between talking about one's views, and promoting a book in print - due to forum rules, Doc can't really promote his own book, or it would be advertising.

People can discuss it though, and share their thoughts about it, as they could on any GSD book they so choose to talk about.

The link to his website does not seem to work anymore?

I believe his kennel name is East Coast Black Magic German Shepherds.

There is a blog and a facebook page for the kennel if you are interested.
 
#72 ·
So I came into this book with a very open mind because I really wanted to give doc the benefit of the doubt. It's pretty cool to publish a book, I'm never going to do it, so I wasn't about to start slamming someone that has accomplished something pretty significant in their life.

I have some very objective issues that I've noticed with this book.

1) It's not listed if this is fiction/nonfiction. It reads very much like a nonfiction book, but doc claimed on this thread that it was just one person's experience so that makes it sound fiction...but unfortunately there is A LOT of "how to" information in that book which is definitely nonfiction. I've basically decided that the idea behind the book is nonfiction and so the book is nonfiction. Which leads me to my second issue...

2) As a nonfiction book...there is a large amount of bias and subjective writing going on. A lot of opinion thrown in when it just isn't necessary. When you throw in opinion into a nonfiction book, you give the reader the idea that the opinion is fact...when it isn't. It's just the author's opinion. I wouldn't have an issue with that if it was a fiction book, author can write all about their opinions then, but this is a nonfiction book, where that amount of opinion isn't necessary and will tend to make an "uneducated" reader believe what they're reading is 100% fact when it isn't.

3) None of the secondary information is cited. There is a bibliography page at the end, but the actual works aren't cited throughout the book. Due to the dates that are written about, and knowing doc's approximate age, it's easy for me to figure out what is secondary and what is actual experience. Unfortunately, others do not have that ability. Some of the sources have also been cited incorrectly, and for no literal reason. Like I noticed the letter doc posted in the "moderate" thread, is listed under "interviews."

4) There are HUGELY inaccurate, sweeping generalizations made. Doc speaks of the bell curve in the book and how everything tends to fit the bell curve. But for some reason, doesn't give the "bite sport" dogs that benefit of the doubt. Basically, all bite sport bred dogs are lumped into the group of national/world level competitors and the type of dogs they prefer (which is also questionable). But I have a huge quarrel with the theory that all bite sport dogs are low threshhold and all the other misinformation about them.

5) There are a lot of informational issues I have with the book, but I don't really want to list them all as I realize many of them are basically differences of opinion. While reading, I could have probably taken a note every five pages and started a thread about it, but that seemed like it would be in bad taste as its very rare that someone has the opportunity to question, or even "call out" an author, but I don't think the forum is the proper place for something like that. Although one could argue that when someone puts out a piece of literary work, it's everyone's responsibility to question it...

I think this book, is a great detriment to anyone that is looking for a GSD. It's extremely biased and if this were a person's first information about the breed, it would definitely steer them in one way over the other instead of just listing out the information in an objective way and letting the reader/user decide what is more important to them. Hopefully, most people will see the bias, not take it as fact, and more than likely discredit the author in that process...but who knows?
 
#84 ·
There are HUGELY inaccurate, sweeping generalizations made....
I think this book, is a great detriment to anyone that is looking for a GSD. It's extremely biased and if this were a person's first information about the breed, it would definitely steer them in one way over the other instead of just listing out the information in an objective way and letting the reader/user decide what is more important to them. Hopefully, most people will see the bias, not take it as fact, and more than likely discredit the author in that process...but who knows?
People have no problem making sweeping generalizations about the larger GSD's, the whites, the ASL's etc. in writing, on forums, and in books. People today still quote things that were written 50 years ago even though some of those opinions are no longer valid, the science is outdated etc. and some people walk away believing the information is factual. I haven't seen any great number of people up in arms because THAT information is biased and often incorrect..most certainly a case of lumping all dogs of one type into the same stereotype.

Now you have someone who points out some of the flaws in the breed that involve the IPO dogs among other things and the book is biased, too much opinion, not enough fact, not enough citations and has too many sweeping generalizations......Pot, kettle, black?

I doubt that Doc is going to change the face of the breed because of this book and I doubt that was his intention. I'm taking it as his opinion based on his experiences as a dog owner and breeder, his knowledge about the history of the dogs and his desire to show another side of the breed that people seem to dismiss even though they've been here for a very long time.
 
#74 ·
OT posts will continue to be deleted. The next one posted will resort in a warning. There are a lot of forums on this board where breeding and training discussions can be started. It is also not fair to address Doc when he can not respond to this thread without getting himself into trouble.

Please stick to discussions about the book itself. BTW, Doc is only one of the authors.

ADMIN
 
#75 · (Edited)
I didn't realize he couldn't reply. I def didn't mean to ask questions he couldn't reply to.

I'd like to talk about this though. So what kind of a thread can I open? I don't always follow what's OT and what's not

ETA I want to talk about doc's views on breeding now that I saw his website. So what kinds of a thread would that be?
 
#76 ·
I would say that is a breeding thread if you are talking about breeding. :)
 
#78 ·
Doc's breeding))))) specifically

I will try to come up with something

Merciel, there are many many, i'd say countless, ot posts left in threads where others were deleted. Yeah, not easy to follow. Besides, it's very subjective what's related to the topic and what's not.
 
#79 ·
my suggestion, lalachka, if you want to know about doc's breeding program and discuss it, PM him.

Once you open a thread and the negatives start on a breeder, that is considered breeder bashing and it will get shut down
 
#81 ·
no I didn't think you were going to, but others will..PM him, Im sure he'll answer your questions
 
#83 · (Edited)
Reflections from the Dog House by Doc & Kay - I highly recommend it for anyone who is interested in the oversize gsds. My Sting is oversize 30 inches tall 130 lbs. but he was a throwback - twice as big as his siblings, so I am very interested also. I get questions from people about Sting like just this morning while walking him on the capitol grounds. They ask me : he is so big, he is beautiful, he sits so calmly - where did you get him, and so on. Instead of saying "well, he was the biggest in the litter" - I now recommend Doc & Kay's book :)
 
#86 ·
I am so sorry . I can not recommend this book.

I bought a copy and over 4 days have read it , more than once .
There is almost an undertone as if Doc doesn't even like GSD.
Is the end thought that the breed will be saved by back yard breeders ?
I surely do not think so , and to equate "the country people" with back yard breeders is flawed and damaging in the long run .
Every back yard breeder will now have reinforcements , whether Doc intended this or not.
The "country people" that were being referenced where the working shepherds who carried on , unimpressed and unaffected by the scramble to create a breed . They bred to make their own work day go easier , from their own stock or a competing shepherds interesting , superior performing dog. They were not back yard breeders .

I think there was reference to Gord Garrett .
"country people" would be his turn of phrase.
I had the pleasure of spending many hours talking to Gord when we attended the same shows. That goes back to mid 70's .
Once again , a co-incidence because I was asking after him , because no one has seen him or heard from him in a long time. That was a week before the book arrived on my doorstep.
At one time he wrote for the Breedlines in the Dogs in Canada magazine .
Oversize dogs , with out of standard colour , without proper breed characteristics , by a group that does not proof the breeding program in work, by work, which does include sport , will not save the day .
Breeders don't despise pet owners.
GSD that do sport are not savage blood lusting dogs .

First section I hit , random chance was Held Ritterberg , a mainstay in my program as a good source of Bernd Lierberg -- koer description is "Held vom Ritterberg
11d
DDR 103314
20-11-1978
SchH.3, Kör 5546/44
Held vom Ritterberg was an outstanding producer of East German/Czech border patrol dogs such as Bero v.d. Friedersdorfer Flur, Kass v. Fürstendamm, Hassan v.d. Hasselwiesen. Line breeding on Held has proven to be very productive in producing hard, serious working Shepherds.
Kör: Just middle-sized, medium-strong, masculine male with good harmony and lines, firm and tight in structure. Striking head with firm ears and dark eyes. Good firm top-line, with beautiful outline in front and rear and he demonstrates a free far-reaching gait with a powerful action. He should not fill out any more in the lowerchest. Similar in type to his parents. He has a relaxed and friendly temperament but hard when provoked with good sharpness, courage and hardness."

Relaxed and friendly temperament . Hard when provoked .
With good sharpness , courage and hardness.

This is ideal . Perfection. A brave dog , who is not a liability . Plus has good , functional size and conformation.

quote " Held was a dog balanced between the unfettered aggression of Hitler's attack dogs and the old main line of Stephanitz' dogs" page 345 .

Not good words about Don Rolandsteich , and his connections to Axel Deininghauserheide .

You have a lovely female that quote "I have a litter mate (female) of this dog. What a wonderful balanced dog that is exhibiting "it" ...
M'Kaiser von Benedict - German Shepherd Dog"

have a look at the pedigree . Rich vein of Held Ritterberg and rich vein of Don Rolandsteich.

You keep mentioning P T Barnum throughout the book -- the reflections , sorry to say are like those you would see in a fun house mirror - found in many circus shows.
 
#87 ·
It seems like I should read this book. But if it's based on untruths, hearsay, and logical fallacies, with misspellings and grammatical errors to boot, I think it would drive me crazy to read.

If it's an editorial opinion piece, slanted writing is one thing. But if the author is trying to make the book seem like nonfiction reference, it's very poor form. This kind of thing is annoying to me even on the internet, but put it in in book form, and it's insulting to the intelligence of the reader.

Plus, I'm aware that Doc breeds oversize, out-of-standard dogs, so I am already skeptical of his opinions and motives. Just from his posts, I've gotten the impression that he's not happy with working GSDs and doesn't like the written standard. He imagines a GSD and a standard that "should have been", and claims he has these rare and precious "old fashioned" bloodlines. I don't know why he doesn't just create another breed like the King or Shiloh Shepherds and be done with it, rather than attempting to rewrite the GSD.

And I remember questioning him on some things he's said here, and never getting a straight answer, so I imagine his book will just be more of the same runaround.
 
#88 ·
People, please, stop talking about the authors in first person. That isn't fair since both are members of this board, but can't come into this thread. Talk about the book and comments made by the authors, or you disagree with the authors, etc, without making it personal.

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa
 
#89 ·
Because the authors sharing their view on this thread that would be taken as 'selling' the book? I don't understand that. Or would they have to pay the premium upgrade to vendor to be in line with the rules. Maybe this thread should just be deleted so the admin and mods don't have to work so hard to keep it in line with the rules and regulations of this board.
 
#90 ·
this is the description of Hektor Linksrhein renamed Horand Grafrath , the male which von Stephanitz chose as the dog upon which to found a breed . He did have a good eye for a dog -- there were reasons that Hektor/Horand was chosen.
Here is that description ""Horand embodied for the enthusiasts of that time the fulfillment of their fondest dreams: he was large for that period -- from 24 - 24 1/2 " height of back, naturally correctly measured without magnifying glasses: and even from the point of view of present conditions, a very good medium size -- with powerful bones, beautiful lines, and a nobly formed head: clean and sinewy in build, the entire dog was one liver wire. His character corresponded to his exterior qualities; marvelous in his insinuating fidelity to his master; towards all others the complete indifference of a master-mind, with a boundless and irrepressible zest for living. Although untrained in his puppyhood, nevertheless obedient in the slightest nod when at his master's side; but when left to himself, the madest rascal, the wildest ruffian and an incorrigible provoker of strife. Never idle, always on the go: well-disposed to harmless people, but no cringer, mad on children and always -- in love . What could not have become of such a dog, if we had only had at that time military or police service training? He suffered from a suppressed , or better, a superfluity of unemployed energy; for he was in heaven when someone occupied with him, and he was then the most tractable of dogs.

Horand handed on these wonderful characteristics of the high-breed to his immediate descendants . They still survive to-day, and we shall see later on that nearly all field trial champions were of Horand strain and possessed his blood to a large degree"

end of quote . This taken directly from the von Stephanitz book, bottom page 136 , 137 and top of 138.

This is a vastly different portrayal than that printed in the discussed book .
I believe this is important to set the tone . Quote from "Reflections" "so that 'working-line' dog means nothing more nor better than a dog whose 'work' is to run down a football field and bite a complete stranger threatening no one is a problem itself . Breeding a dog to readily and rapidly bite the first person the dog sees that isn't his own handler is not conducive to creating a dog that fits well into the world as it is today.

continued "Stephanitz could get away with a dog that chased his tenant farmers' stock because they were his tenant farmers and were dependant upon his good will - whether they liked it or not . His dogs could bite his servants and the tradesmen, delivery boys and people from the middle and lower echelons of society with impunity because those people could do nothing about it . They couldn't sue him and they had no recourse when his dog bit them. Stephanitz could get away with bragging that his dog knew by a man's clothing whether or not he could bite that man with impunity."

continue with direct quote "Today, Stephanitz would get sued and Horand, with all his delight in provoking strife and his joy in biting anyone not wealthy enough to afford expensive clothing would not live long enough to be the father of a breed -- he'd be put to sleep in short order"

end quote

Horand put to sleep in short order.

You compare the description I have given from von Stephanitz. No where , no way similar.
 
#91 ·
other point a GSD has to have a good grip . I believe grip and bite are different.
Anne "Vandal" speaks often, as do I, of dogs that grip, torque and push into . I have seen it with my own eyes.
It is a trait I have been told by decoys and LE that my dogs tend to have .
It is a trait that Ellen Nicklesberg in her articles talks about.
It is a trait that is in the von Stephanitz book , where he says a dog must have an authoritative firm grip and exert his will upon the sheep. A dog with less will make the herd restless , and that in big numbers is a big problem.
 
#92 ·
But in those two descriptions what us the truth? Does anyone know? I know plenty of kennel blind breeders who refuse to see the truth in their dogs.

So while I am sure that Von Stephanitz took great joy in his dog, and thought his rapscallion ways were wonderful and charming, that does not mean the dog did not happily bite or intimidate people that were of no threat.

But do we know the truth? Anyone?

I have not read the book, and based on some quotes I have read, I won't. I don't like the tone. Just saying, that while he was the founder if the breed, he is biased as well.

If we are going to get on one persons case for bias, then Stephanitz should not be who we use as a counter point.

You can win a argument by saying " your mom is wrong that sky is orange, because my mom says it's purple" two opinions don't make fact.


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#96 ·
Came across the publishing house online.

For those who are interested in reading the book, for whatever reason, consider buying it directly from the publisher:
Reflections from the Dog House ? Parson's Porch & Company

They are a 501(c)3 nonprofit organization whose profits go to help folks in need.

No affiliation to the publisher or author. (Not sure if this is different than posting a link to an online store for a training DVD, equipment, etc...?)
 
#97 ·
The book says that the "old fashioned" dogs have the lowest incidence of bloat, SIBO, IBD, EPI and JRD. (because they have less in-breeding and avoid back-massing.)

I'm curious to know if like the WS/WGSD breeders, does this group of breeders have some kind of genetic database devoted to the old fashioned GSD?
 
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