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Book by Doc

18K views 106 replies 41 participants last post by  CarolinaRose 
#1 ·
Doc from this forum wrote a book called Reflections From the Dog House.

I haven't finished it completely but it is a good read.

Lots of general information and history. Also practical advice for owners.

He also manages to step on many toes,
but if one keeps an open mind there is a lot of common sense to his discussion of extremes.

There are a few people on this forum mentioned in the book but I won't say who.


Anyway I think some of you would get a lot out of it.

For the record I do not know Doc personally and there is no financial interest or connection between us.
 
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#31 ·
actually on amazon you can read excerpts from the book and i have a question
maybe this belongs in its own thread but i read in the book on page 122

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Reflections-Dog-House-Lewis-Phillips/dp/1936912961[/ame]

that 'schutzhund people in general' do not believe their dogs should be able to be handled even by a veterinarian

is this true?? that people who do schutzhund with their dogs do not believe their dogs should be handled by a judge as for examining teeth and testicles
or even have a vet check the teeth?
do' schutzhund people in general' want their dogs to bite the vet? :help:
:wild:
it has always been my understanding that in order to do well in schutzhund a dog has to have above and beyond average nerves
:confused:
 
#32 ·
Good question, MBD - I'd love to see a healthy discussion on that point!
 
#33 · (Edited)
My Schutzhund dogs are and routinely have been handled by vets. I've never had a dog bite or attempt to bite a vet and that includes having dead, infected tissue painfully trimmed away. I've also left my Schutzhund dogs at the vet all day to have OFA x-rays taken and they have always complimented me on their temperament, not freaking out in the kennel, and ease of handling them. These dogs have all been shown, some of them many times, so they are also used to male judges checking teeth and testicles and running hands over them to assess their angles and body condition.

IMO, my dogs (regardless of breed or training) should be able to be handled in ANY way by myself and also by any person I say so for any reason I say. Key word here being *I*. I still control who handles my dog and why, I would never be OK with a stranger tresspassing onto my property and manhandling my dog or care if my dog objected to this.
 
#34 ·
I opened this thread so people would know that someone on here wrote a book that they "might" be interested in not for it to be picked apart piece by piece by people who haven't read it.

No one involved in IPO is going to like this book and I completely understand Vandals post. She was direct in reference to the book.

The book covers much more than IPO or show. It has a lot of history and covers a wide variety of other topics. If you think you won't like it don't buy it.

I was out last evening but came home in time to see the now deleted posts. My estimation of a number of individuals hit a real low.

This thread turned to crap because of small minded people and I for one wish it would be closed as it no longer serves a purpose.
 
#36 ·
This thread turned to crap because of small minded people and I for one wish it would be closed as it no longer serves a purpose.
I disagree. Assuming that people can restrain themselves and stay on topic (which I think should be much easier now that much of yesterday's chatter has been pruned away), I think there is much to be gained from an informed, measured, and candid discussion of the book.

I can certainly empathize with Doc in feeling a little touchy about certain criticisms (commiserating about 1-star reviews is a super popular pastime among authors -- every author, no matter how big a name, occasionally gets a nerve hit by those 1-star cracks!), but the fact is, if you publish a book then you are putting it out there for the public to talk about, good or bad. That's what publication means: you are inviting people to read and talk about what you've said.
 
#38 ·
I'm well aware of the various absurd reasons people put up 1-star reviews. I've gotten 1-star reviews because somebody's copy of a book got dinged in the mail; a couple of my friends have gotten 1-star reviews because their release dates were pushed back or people disliked a character or similarly weird reasons. It happens. It sucks, but it happens. That's part of being an author too. ;)

Anyway, there are a lot of people on the board who have read the book or who plan to read it, and I would like to keep a place open for them to talk about it when they have. Personally, I'm undecided as to whether I'll buy a copy, and so it would be helpful to me to know what people think and why.
 
#39 · (Edited)
Here is the deal. Some guy writes a book about a topic he has no qualifications or achievements in. He fills a portion of it with lies and half truths to push his agenda or biases then when he gets called on it people are going on about how the book is about more then that one specific topic? Why would it matter what the author wrote about in other sections of the book if he is happy to spread mis information in one subsection. What possible value could such a work hold and how could you trust what the person writes on other topics of he is willing to tweak and twist the truth regarding the topic in which he clearly has preconcieved biases? When you put something in print you better be able to answer the hard questions.
Sorry to burst some bubbles :) and rain on the parade.

Fyi: For those who didnt get it the fairytale was an analogy most parts of which were a play on opinions and statements the author has made in the past..;).
 
#40 ·
merciel you can read a fair amt of it on amazon if you click on the book itself it opens in a new window
which is where i got to page 122
sorry but after such a broad sweeping generalization and nose snubbing to schutzhund people
many of whom are probably on this forum and who can state it is not true
the book has lost all credence for me :shrug:
 
#41 · (Edited)
Oh I think I comprehended the fairy tale quite well. I haven't read a lot of Doc's posts, nor do I, from the sound of it, share some of his views. However, silliness belongs in the silly thread. Maybe it's just that I work with young children and deal with much silliness and fantastical language on a daily basis and am used to channeling it into appropriate venues. I'm turning into a schoolmarm I think.
 
#42 ·
Right, this thread got lame real fast. If people don't care to read it *don't read it*. Who cares what Amazon reviews say? I once was looking for a 100' HDMI cable and read a horrible review from someone who said the cable he got was "too long" (mind you this is a product that is sold and priced based on a known, quantifiable LENGTH!). I haven't read the book so I can't comment (though it sounds like I won't like it) but I guess if anything, I'll give Doc props for writing almost 400 pages.
 
#45 ·
An excerpt from the book:

For the bite sport dogs , the 'courage' test has evolved from the action of the dog to get between his handler and a 'bad guy' simulating an attack on that very same handler, to a dog that runs down a football field to make an UNprovoked (emphasis actually in the book) attack of his own on a stranger wandering around minding his own business. Good high bite thresholds have been ditched for low bite thresholds, pry drive suited to a herding dog has been exchanged for the kind of extreme prey drive which will support an unprovoked attack on someone no where near the dog's handler, and genetic obedience, which supports cooperation with a human towards a common goal has been thrown out the window because it doesn't support an unprovoked attack on a human.

This type of inflammatory drivel and out right lies are strewn throughout the book while the authors claim:

Just as the 'old-fashioned' dogs tend to have a kinder, gentler nature....... the people who choose the 'old-fashioned dogs tend to be more open, mannerly 'just folks'. They are generally friendly, welcoming, and tend to accept a wide variety of opinions....... The can generally understand divergent points of view, even if they don't embrace them.

Like Anne/Vandal. I give the book :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
 
#48 ·
Thanks - so what are the credentials of the author?
 
#60 ·
I think this is kind of a red herring.

You can write a good, accurate, and informative book about a topic you're not necessarily an expert in, provided that your research is solid and supported by citations to source authorities. In fact, for a broad-ranging book (like this one), you almost have to do that, because nobody could possibly be a personal firsthand source for every topic covered in a book that stretches over a span of decades.

That's why pretty much every informative nonfiction book out there has a huge table of citations in the back. For example, John Bradshaw's Dog Sense, which I'm just using as an example because it's right next to my computer at the moment, has some 20 pages of notes at the back of the book that include citations to the research supporting all of the factual statements he makes, chapter by chapter.

So the more relevant question, IMO, would be: to the extent that any factual representations are made in this book, what are the sources? What research is cited? What primary and secondary authority?

(Obviously I don't know the answer, not having read it, but maybe someone who has can chime in.)
 
#50 ·
lalachka, my post was not to you or about anything you wrote. I was critiquing the book based on the parts I have read so far.

Guardyan, you can read about the authors on Amazon, I believe.
 
#53 ·
For the bite sport dogs , the 'courage' test has evolved from the action of the dog to get between his handler and a 'bad guy' simulating an attack on that very same handler, to a dog that runs down a football field to make an UNprovoked (emphasis actually in the book) attack of his own on a stranger wandering around minding his own business.
If this is incorrect, what exactly is happening when the dog runs down the field and jumps at the sleeve and why does he do it?
(no idea, that's why I'm asking)
 
#55 ·
The dog is being provoked, the helper/decoy is yelling at the dog and the dog must be in control(sit) until released, then be courageous and run full on at the 'threat' and bite without bailing. It is a courage test.
For many who do this sport, the test isn't done at a long distance often as it can be dangerous for both dog and helper, though it is done enough to show how the dog bites, which way the dog will go on impact. There are nuances in training on the dogs natural movement on a long bite(I mean courage test). Experienced helpers learn to read the dogs movement as it comes downfield to catch it safely.
Other times, it is trained over and over with a bungee to prove the dog will engage and power up. All depends on the dog.
 
#58 ·
Not that it's assumed but the exercise is supposed to be showing that a dog can search someone's property, find the intruder, alert the handler, hold the intruder until the handler can get there and then bite on command or if he's trying to get away.

That what I thought this was about. If that's the case then there's no innocent people minding their own business getting bitten

Still though, no excuse for yesterday's stuff)))))
 
#59 ·
Not that it's assumed but the exercise is supposed to be showing that a dog can search someone's property, find the intruder, alert the handler, hold the intruder until the handler can get there and then bite on command or if he's trying to get away.

That what I thought this was about. If that's the case then there's no innocent people minding their own business getting bitten
That is what it is about. It is based on police work, something which used to be very obvious to even the most casual observer back before they changed the rules to eliminate the handler ordering the helper to put his hands up and doing a pat-down search of the "bad guy".

But yes, the handler and dog aren't just out for a walk in the park, menacing innocent strangers. The dog has been cued by the handler and the environment that there is a bad guy somewhere for them to find and deal with. That is the dog's job at the moment, and he knows it.

The only time the dog bites is when the helper is directly threatening the dog and/or handler. When the helper is neutral, or ceases fighting, the dog must guard, and can bark, but no biting.

The only exception to that is the escape exercise, where upon finding the helper in his hiding spot the handler orders him out of the blind and sets the dog to guard the helper while the handler goes into the blind (again mimicking police work where the handler may need to check the bad guy's hiding spot for contraband, evidence, etc...) When the helper tries to run away while the handler is out of sight, the dog prevents his escape.

There are no "innocents" threatened or harmed in a SchH protection routine.
 
#61 ·
"You can write a good, accurate, and informative book about a topic you're not necessarily an expert in"
You could, but wouldn't an expert write a better one? :)

I'm not trying to cause problems. I'm not familiar with the author or their views and was curious what their qualifications were.
 
#62 ·
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I'm sure we're all familiar with the phenomenon of the professor who is a brilliant scholar in his or her chosen field, but an absolutely terrible writer whose grasp of English is much akin to a lawnmower's grasp on a frog. Those books are frequently informative, but they're still terrible, because nobody can stand to read them.

And sometimes the process of researching and writing the book makes the author an expert in their field, even if they had no special knowledge -- just a lot of passion -- about that subject before starting the project.

So really I think you have to evaluate the text separately from the author's background, to some extent. If some of the assertions seem questionable, what citations back them up? What's the skeleton of objective, verifiable fact or research that supports the rest of the squishier opinion bits?
 
#63 ·
It's pretty clear to see that the book's description, and therefore the insinuation made about the temperament of the dogs and their reasons for biting, is completely inaccurate and intentionally misleading.

one has to wonder what the authors motivations were to spread such misinformation?
i mean it isnt even thursday :D

no really
it isnt enough just to promote ones own oversized unique color breeding program
does one really have to literally slander the entire working dog world??
 
#64 ·
And sometimes the process of researching and writing the book makes the author an expert in their field, even if they had no special knowledge -- just a lot of passion -- about that subject before starting the project.
You make some very interesting points. However, I'm not certain that someone can become a dog expert by reading and researching. For example, I can read various discussions about pack drive, but my understanding would be limited until I handled dogs with varying levels of pack drive and challenged them in some capacity.
 
#67 ·
However, I'm not certain that someone can become a dog expert by reading and researching. For example, I can read various discussions about pack drive, but my understanding would be limited until I handled dogs with varying levels of pack drive and challenged them in some capacity.
I agree. I think there are some things that you need to do hands-on to fully appreciate.

That said, my understanding is that this is more of a breed history and personal memoir, rather than a training book. I only read a few pages of the excerpt that's on Amazon (meant to give it a more thorough look, but I had too much actual work to do this afternoon), so I only got to the part where the book was talking about the roles that dogs have played throughout history. That stuff you can definitely get by research (indeed, what other way is there to know what the social role of companion dogs was in medieval society?), and that's exactly the sort of material that I would expect to see supported by citations to authorities in the back.

Now, if it turns out that the focus of the book is more on other things (which I don't know because, again, I have not read more than the first few pages), then yes, I agree, I would want to know more about the basis of the author's experience.

If that's the case, then I would assume the book talks about that, but maybe someone who's read it can discuss that aspect from a more informed standpoint. I can only speculate and talk about generalities, which is not very helpful.
 
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