LOL. I may be making way too big of a deal out of this. I was throwing his ball across the yard into the wooded lot as I always do. All of a sudden I hear a huge ruckus and out he comes as fast as he can with a 75lb doe hot on his heels. These small whitetail around here are not aggressive like a mule deer. We assumed she was protecting her fawn.
My question is this. He is almost 11 months old and doesn't act scared of anything and has shown a good amount of protection drive. Why was he afraid of a little doe? Shouldn't he have fought back if the deer attacked him? He didn't even bring his ball back. Is it that he is young? Is this part of the slow to mature part?
As I said it may be no big deal. I just have a problem with my supposed to be big bad male DDR/Czech "fight til death" buddy turning tail and running in fear from a deer.
had the scenario been a deer grazing surprised by the dog and running away then likely the dog would have pursued in prey mode.
This deer was in defensive charging mode . A singular dog , for its own safety would avoid . Had the dog been running with his canine pals there may have been a different strategy , because dogs still work co-operatively in packs . Strong healthy animals tend to be left alone . Better chance with tackling some feeble animal or some very young one, less chance of injury .
I think the issue is that some people just like the general public in most cases think that all GSD's are police/military dogs with training and will give that fight in all situations, when in reality most people have them as pets and wonderful deterrents. In most situations I am going to protect my dog and I don't really expect him to die for me. I would much rather have a dog that chooses to pick its battles.
A healthy sense of self preservation is a good thing, IMO. If there is no REASON to fight (e.g. protection), going after the deer rather than deciding not to unnecessarily risk injury shows a dog that doesn't think first.
Or a dog that does think and after assessing the threat coming at him, decides he can defeat that threat (whether that's true or not). Some of you would call the dog stupid. Others would call the dog fearless.
I'd personally be disappointed if my dog ran from anything. Back up and bark is fine. Running to dodge the animal is fine. Bolting the other direction would leave me disappointed. I could see that in a show line but wouldn't be acceptable in a big bad alpha ddr/Czech dog
I don't think given the situation, a lot of posters here really would know how a dog would act if their owner was under attack from an animal. It reminds me of the video about the different dogs and what they would do if their house was broken into. The maker of the video was sure no dogs would attack unless they were trained to. Thing is, they wore a bite sleeve on every entry and the owner was not in any of the houses which really didn't prove but one thing. The makers of the video had no idea how the dogs would react given the situation. Video proved nothing.
Like here, dog was on his own in the brush and got chased by a deer. Owner not being attacked and a young dog. He did the right thing. But how does anyone know if the dog would not have defended it's owner? You just don't.
Purchasing and training a "to the standard" GSD can give you a somewhat idea but sure dont want a gsd that bites and fights everything that moves or blinks. Unstable comes to mind.
These posts are crazy. I wouldn't want my dog to engage in anything that could cause him harm in any way. He doesn't need to protect me. That's not what I got him for. If I need protection, I'll carry my gun; and protect him too.
Fight because of an aggressor, being aggressive. The only options are fight or flight. In many ways, you see the *real* heart of a dog (or person) when you come upon these unplanned, spontaneous tests life throws at you.
What about risk/reward assessment? (I'm a behavioral ecologist and I study predation behavior, so the application in this sort of scenario is really fascinating...). High risk, low/no reward. Most animals in the wild, including top predators, will rarely stay and fight "just because" if there is no resource to be gained (or, in this case, someone to defend). So at what point does domestication as "fearless protectors" overwrite natural instincts of self-preservation? Though, in this case, because the dog is not protecting anyone, "fearless protector" doesn't apply. Hm...
Too many variables to really cut it down to purely risk/reward. Some dogs could have prey stimulation regardless of the aggressive nature of the deer and give chase anyway. Some dogs would see the deer as an encroacher/competitor on their territory. Some as a threat that must be dealt with through the application of violence. Animals are smart, they learn where danger resides. If every time a herd of deer cross a certain road one gets hit by a car, the others will find an alternate crossing eventually.
There are lots of possibilities depending on the situation and how the dog perceived it. Social animals frequently defend the collective... its high risk/low reward for themselves, but high reward for the family/social unit.
In the case an animal is within its own perceived territory, there is the loss of resources at stake.
When you cut it all the way down to your dog being alone in an area its never been before to mitigate the influences of the above, then we have high risk. The reward is less tangible. The reward could be security. If I went into strange bar and a guy said "you, not welcome... leave" and I knocked him out and went about my business at that bar, I doubt I'd be messed with again.
Ok can understand not wanting my gsd to run screaming from the woods and also prefer a dog bark and alert to a problem. Just trying to understand this fight the deer like a wild wolf thinking.
First, domestic dogs and "wild wolves" are one and the same species lol.
All non-friendly (and some friendly) interactions between animals are a sequence of back and forth posturing to "sort out who's who". Its like a poker hand where each party must raise the pot, or fold. I want a dog who always raises to force the others' hands. Always. Always, and always. To take the analogy further, not a dog who goes all in every time. One that just raises enough to force the others fold
Years ago I had a run in with deer. Upon arriving home from work I always went out and ran with Jack. Sometimes I would let Jack run loose with me part of the time. All of a sudden he comes up on a doe and pursues it as the doe kicks it into high gear. I was stunned and bummed. Jack was in rocket drive and my call back failed. Stunned at how fast it all happened, Jack cut across the forest floor like a race horse, jumping over dead trees, shallow ravines and streams. They both disappeared into the gray light of the evening dusk. With my adrenaline pumping I ran back to the house to get a flashlight and my truck. I planned getting on the service road that we always ran on. I went to try one more recall. Before I could get it out Jack was coming at me like a freight train. Once he got back on our property he swung around next to me, hair up and barked like I never heard him before. A buck had stopped at the edge of the yard snorting and kicking. I picked up a good size stick and threw it at the buck. I slapped my side for Jack and we both headed for the enclosed deck. Once safely on the deck the buck left in a huff at a trot looking at us all the way until he disappeared into the forest. I figured Jack probably ran straight into a harem. I learned three things that night. One, I needed to work on my recall. Two, you are not coming on my property angry without an argument. Three, we were both lucky. OP your pup did just fine. Rest in peace Jack.
Another fact of life - there will always be someone bigger and better than you. Or here's another - pride comes before the fall.
Personally, I don't have anything to prove so I pick my battles as wisely as I can and I expect and hope my dog to do the same. I'd rather have a smart dog then a dead dog, same as any human that I care about. Fighting for the of fighting, heck no. I've done self defense and martial arts but I'd never use either for any reason other than a life was at stake. In the OP's case - there was nothing of the sort. Why would I expect my dog to act any differently, if he does - well he made his decision and I'll hopefully be there to dig him out of the mess if needed.
I don't think its pride at all that makes a dog do what he does... not sure how that applies. Anyway, the conversation was going towards dogs in general, not the OP's case
This whole business of training protection dogs... or fighting men, is to convince them beyond any self doubt, that they are infact the biggest, baddest, mofo that has ever walked the earth. Of course its not true, but this the under lying theme of any protection training in a dog.
Would never want or expect a 11 month old gsd puppy to rip out the carotid of a deer. No thanks. Now at 4 or 5 just knock that darn helper out and stop when I tell you. : )
I never claimed to know anything about the south. I was being sarcastic in that statement. Nor was I generalizing. I made it very clear I was speaking of my area, which is specific.
??? I think you have me confused with someone else. I didn't say anything about "your perceived ego" until you got nasty with me for simply asking what your experience was since you come on very strong with opinions that are only opinions. Maybe you are being a bit defensive or paranoid and perceiving that you have a perceived ego. Maybe you should go back and read my TWO posts (yeah only two before you got nasty) again because it's seems to be you trying to pick a fight with me.
But anywho...work to do. No time to play today. Carry on with your bar fights and wildlife psychology.
You appeared, when I read "But luckily for you, the hospital is very close to the bars. You are welcome to come test your theory." to have been implying, with rather threatening language I might add, I was talking not in the general sense, but that I myself will be in the mentioned scenario. Then went on to give me suggestions about testing my "theories" which you immediately discount by my lack of a degree on the subject matter. Once again, the attack is against me, not the merit of what I said... Then you gave up and called me "king". I hope its clear why none of the above was effective in disproving my "theory". Or proving. Just white noise.
I don't feel I've been anything that could be described as "nasty". Still, noted, and I'll try to use more smilies and "lol"s lol.
And my entire point could be summed up as "When observing bar fights, or wildlife interactions, the psychology behind the participants remains the same".
Jax do you have anything insightful to add to the discussion or are you just here to tout how your town has a lot of "pack drive" aka I can't handle things myself so I scream for my friends to jump in?
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