I honestly don't ever remember seeing dogs in grocery stores. I know I've read a lot on these dog forums about service dogs, but the dogs I'm seeing don't have on any vest or anything. I was at Whole Foods in Boise and some older lady was walking a lil Foo Foo dog (Yorkie, maybe?) on a leash down the aisle. I approached a worker and mentioned it, and he just shrugged his shoulders like there was nothing he could do. He said non-service dogs are not allowed due to sanitation reasons, and then he went back to stocking the shelves. I was just at my base commissary and saw a family (husband, wife, kids) with a black Lab on a leash in the frozen food section. Again, I went to a worker and asked them about their policy, and they said only service dogs were allowed. He also mentioned that he didn't see the dog, who had now already checked out and left.
I love my dogs, and would love to take them anywhere and everywhere. I appreciate stores like Home Depot, Lowes, PetSmart and Petco for allowing me to take my dogs in there. I know there are people who have posted on here that they like to challenge "the system", and if a store doesn't have any signs on their door saying "No Dogs" then they will just bring their dog right in, regardless of what type of store it is. Maybe this is starting to catch on like a wildfire?
I'm no service dog expert, and I always try to give the person the benefit of the doubt, so maybe they have documentation in their purse to prove it's a service dog (since it's not wearing a vest or any other visible proof showing it's a SD) and not just a pet or emotional companion? Is it against the law to ask them about why their dog is in the grocery store? Why do the store workers seem so helpless and afraid to do anything? Both workers told me dogs are certainly NOT ALLOWED, but then they just allow them to be in there anyways.
Two dogs spotted in a month's time, after going 39 years without ever seeing a dog in a grocery store is kind of odd, don't ya think!?!
That's it....tomorrow...I'm riding in the electric carts the grocery store has AND bringing my unruly GSD to the grocery store.....cutting her loose in the meat department.
...but I know a stealth shih Tzu, IRL! She will run up to you, with those oversized buggly eyes they have, look up into your face as though begging for attention then when you reach down to pet her, BAM nail you. Granted her teeth are tiny and she probably has 2 pounds of bite pressure but she can leave a nasty scratch.
Just to clarify, I'm not opposed to carrying an ID. I carry ID cards with law info and information on my dog's trained tasks (well, they currently say that she's in training to complete those tasks, but when she's fully trained in a year or so they will have her trained tasks that relate to public access on them). So do most SD handlers.
But... I do not think they should be NECESSARY. That's all.
But...you know what, I'm one of those dolts that follows the rules.
So it won't make a difference to me if food safety becomes such a concern because all the 'fakers' mess it up for legit SDs that rules get changed or made even stricter.....it won't be my problem.
"Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task."
I carry the ID because it makes my life easier. But it is not legally required, and shouldn't be.
ETA:
BUT, staff ARE allowed to ask two questions.
"Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform."
And then deny service because of that. AS WELL AS deny service based on unruly behavior such as inappropriate elimination, barking, or aggression.
Yes. I have been. Your story just showed that businesses do not know THEIR rights either. BUSINESSES can ask for information on the dogs. Two questions. If handlers wish to use ID cards to answer those questions, then that's up to them. But businesses CAN and SHOULD ask those two basic questions. An ID may or may not make any difference at all, if the businesses don't have the knowledge that they are allowed to ask those questions.
It's a lack of ADA education. Not something that legitimate service dog handlers are doing wrong. That's all I'm trying to say.
btw- facebook is a great place for validation, not to get all sides of an issue.
Here's a hypothetical.
These 'non-rules' make it harder for businesses. They also enable fakers. period.
One of these days, like the lady who took her GSD to the ATL aquarium, a 'faker' dog is going to bite a kid, really bad.
The ATL aquarium is going to get sued out the wazoo....
You know what's going to happen after that, more businesses are going to get nervous about all these colorful dogs in their stores.
They're going to get together and push for more rules and regulations. They may even push to limit access because it's become such a serious problem as more and more dogs get the designation 'service dog'.
The general public probably won't be too sympathetic because the ones following the rules and not bringing their dogs places like the aquarium won't be loosing anything, basically.
Meanwhile the price of aquarium tickets just went up and so did the loaf of bread because the grocer had to through out an entire lower shelf due to contamination from a dog peeing on it.
All because you guys think it's a moral right to have outfits that don't clash with your dogs? (as you said in the other thread).
Anyhoo, like I said, doesn't affect me. Knock yourself out but if my scenario comes true over time I won't have much sympathy.
It'll minimize fakers. *Most* people won't go to great lengths and buy special I.D. colored vests and such.
*Most* people just won't invest that much energy and money into it.
Some people may but than you'd be letting perfect be the enemy of good. if that is a reason to not make things better.
As it stands now they just have to know how to answer two questions. That lady at Petsmart happily shared with me how she got into the ATL aquarium after all.
Ok. So maybe ignorant question. Why would people, with and without, a disability be against a formal certification? Why is this a problem? I know not all dogs are trained for the same things, but being able to demonstrate skills and basic manners for an impartial judge? Why is this not done? It would not disqualify owner trained dogs, it could even be a minimal fee, to pay for evaluators. That way, if questioned, all that needs to be shown is a cert card.
Ok. So maybe ignorant question. Why would people, with and without, a disability be against a formal certification? Why is this a problem? I know not all dogs are trained for the same things, but being able to demonstrate skills and basic manners for an impartial judge? Why is this not done? It would not disqualify owner trained dogs, it could even be a minimal fee, to pay for evaluators. That way, if questioned, all that needs to be shown is a cert card.
Good question....my knee jerk reaction might suggest in this overly litigious society we live in...corporations might not welcome the idea of incredibly well trained non SDs in their establishments.....for fear of the ensuing law suits by people who were traumatized because a dog licked his chops while looking at their small children.....who knows......but I do like your thinking.
Because it's down to who's disability is worse? You could argue some peoples fear of dogs are disabling, so where are their rights? It should be only dogs for people who need it. You need the dog there, it isn't fun, it isn't cute, it just makes it tolerable. You want a wheelchair because you don't want to stand? It's a crutch.
I get it. But maybe it could be as simple as having an impartial person get a cert through a national org and then administer the test. Like a CGC evaluators. They are everywhere.
To test for cert, you have to provide the evaluator you prescription for the dog, explain their tasks and then demonstrate basic manners, and if able the tasks they are trained to mitigate. For those that have disabilities that are hard to demonstrate( diabetes, seizure, PTSD) a video of 2 instances where the dog did their job.
The closest CGC evaluator to me is 35 minutes away with a very rural environment in between. For me, with a driver's license and my own vehicle, not a problem.
For someone else with limited mobility, no friends or family who can help, no driver's license or vehicle of their own due to their disability, it becomes extremely difficult. There is one bus service that can take you into the nearby city that is actually an hour and a half away at 6:45 PM. $30-35 one way. The return bus doesn't become available until 9 PM the following morning. Which, unless there were late night consultations available, means that the person would have to find a hotel not just for one night, but two nights. And since the dog in question isn't yet certified, they'd have to pay pet fees. Hotels around here that allow pets run around $50 per night on the cheapest end. So, without even starting to look at the certification costs and in town transportation to get to those places, they're looking at a minimum of $160-170 just to get there. Not the mention the difficulties faced by their dog not being certified so they don't have public access, so could they even use the public transportation available in that town, how do they safely get themselves things that they need, in a strange town, without assistance, etc. And what about the dog, does this person have to carry around a large crate as well as all of their other stuff so they can safely keep the dog in the hotel room until they have the option?
There's just a lot of hoops to jump through. I'm not saying it's not a good idea... but a lot to consider. What might be an afternoon of ease for one person, turns into a several day long extremely difficult ordeal for someone else.
Ok. So if getting around to a locality is that difficult, are they really out and about with their dog? If they can't drive, or don't have someone drive them 35 minutes away, how are they out and about with their service animal? Unless they live in a stupidly small town(to which I am sure residents would be aware) or they can't be in public anyway due to transportation.
My town isn't a "small" town. It's actually a college town with 10,000 enrolled students in addition to other mid sized town amenities. There are multiple large stores, shopping centers, etc. And there are "rural rides" transportation for qualified individuals within the town. A TON of places where a service dog would be necessary and enough turnover that it's not at all like a small town where everybody knows everybody. No CGC evaluator though.
And it's really not that unusual of a town. I know of quite a few in similar situations that my friends came from. Just poorer rural environments with very little public transportation, but large enough suburbs/cities that access could easily be in question.
Ya know as a small business owner I can say when you hear them complaining about the cost of regulations one of the biggies that is one of the few overbearing federal regs that affects almost all brick & mortar establishments.... ADA.
Then you add on to that SDs that aren't held to any standards, PC gone overboard so you can't figure out if someone is even faking it with their pet dog, a lack of professionalism amongst what are supposed to be working dogs, disabled people suing businesses, no easy visible ID because they want to be able to have "outfits that don't clash" with their dogs, the ever increasing reasons dogs can be classified as service dogs, it's getting so onerous as to be unsustainable.
No wonder businesses and citizens are starting to feel taken advantage of, not to mention the costs involved being passed on to all of us.
If SD owners don't start thinking about reaching out and meeting people and businesses in the middle here, adhere to some standards, the whole system is going to collapse.
It's hard enough to get a business up and going in this country and to not think about how to make it easier for businesses and the public to comply while meeting the needs of people who REALLY need a SD is illogical, unfair and self defeating.
It’s not the SD handlers…its everyone. It’s today’s American culture. I’m not sure how many times I run into someone who does something because it’s their legal right to do so without any worry about actually caring if its morally okay. Tons of times people believe that if they have the legal right to do something, it doesn’t matter what kind of a human being they’re being.
Unfortunately, we probably all do this in our day to day life. Like, I can recall how someone didn’t want dogs walking on their front lawn and actually confronted a neighbor about it…well, IMO…you just ruined a relationship with someone that is probably going to live there for a while and there is a chance you’ll need them for something at one point…but your “personal property” was more important and you can’t have a dog walk through it for 30 seconds.
The funny thing about licensing/testing…look up some “dog license” threads. See how people feel about those…and those are just regular pets. People hate the government telling them what they can and can’t do, or paying even a nominal fee for a license that they don’t believe is necessary.
I've actually been involved in some of those licensing threads. I commented that we'd rather cater to the lowest common denominator then incentivize and reward those who would put the effort in to do better. There is a punitive nature to this country.
Having said that this really wouldn't be an insurmountable problem to solve, but if it isn't solved the problem will only get worse.
But that's so boring, when matching outfits are so important and business owners can be bullied with impunity.
Business owners also face problems. In August, Russell Ireland banned a dog from his Oxford, Mass., diner after its owner put a plate of food on the floor for the dog.
James Glasser claimed it was a legitimate service animal and took part in a boycott of the diner. There was talk of a lawsuit. Ireland apologized. The dog's actual status is unclear.
Cook Justin Fisher said his boss' reputation took a beating. Business is just now returning to normal.
Not all those involved in the Service Dog world are so unfair.
There needs to be a standard, said Jennifer Arnold, founder of Canine Assistants in Atlanta. "The sticky part is who will do the testing and what will be the criteria for allowing dogs to be considered assistance dogs."
An ID card might be the simplest answer, she said, adding that she doesn't think the loss of privacy will be the big issue that some think it will be.
I was at the grocery and two people were walking out with puppies. I asked and they got them from the meat dept, I think the grocery stores are puppy mills and thats why you are seeing more dogs in the grocery store...
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