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Old 04-15-2014, 06:21 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Mila 8 weeks female GS - nutrition

Simple question , the breeder was using Pedigree regular food prior to her being with us and i started her with IAMS puppy .
Do you believe this food will be ok for her in the long run or do you suggest other brand ??
Thank you
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Old 04-15-2014, 07:58 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I would not feed either.

Check out the ingredients in pedigree:
Our Ingredients | Really Good Food For Dogs | PEDIGREE

Corn, meat and bone meal, corn gluten meal, animal fat, wheat, chicken by-product meal, beet pulp, brewer's rice etc.

Corn isn't a good ingredient really, it is a cheap filler, and it is found in very cheap dog foods. It does not provide much in the way of nutrition.

Meat and bone meal, is generic meat and bone, could be pork, could be chicken, could be beef, could be whatever is cheapest today.

Corn gluten meal binds dog food together and boosts the protein artificially so it looks like you are actually getting meat in there.

animal fat -- dogs need fat, and it should come from animals, but better ingredients list which animal was used for providing the fat. It is not whatever is cheapest today, it is chicken fat, today, tomorrow, and next week. Then if you do have a dog that has an issue with a specific meat source, you can avoid it altogether.

Wheat is another grain, unnecessary for dogs, and often something dogs can have issue with. It is not a deal breaker for me, but rice is more digestible, and I tend to go with foods with rice in them over wheat.

Beet pulp will help the stool form. Again, not a deal breaker. But not the top of the list either.

And brewer's rice is the cheapest rice they can put in there.

Conclusion, this food has a LOT more grains (which carnivores do not need) than meat, which is what carnivores do need. You will feed much more of this food than a quality food, because Garbage In has to come out. The dog will need more of it because what he needs is a small percentage of the overall product. So you will spend less per bag, but buy more bags of food, and pick up more poop, and with these foods that are of lower quality, they are much more likely to have products preserved in materials known to cause cancer, and colors and flavors that also should not be necessary, sugars. So health is compromised.

Iams is a little better:

Iams pro-active large breed puppy -- a lot better than back when I used it, but still:

Chicken, Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Corn Grits, Brewers Rice, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Flavor, Fish Meal, Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Egg Product, Brewers Dried Yeast, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Choline Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, L-Lysine Monohydrochloride, Fructooligosaccharides, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate), Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (source of vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), DL-Methionine, Rosemary Extract.

Chicken is the first ingredient, BUT Chicken is 70% water, so if you knock out the water as will happen in the extrusion process, Chicken lands much lower on the list of ingredients. Chicken meal or Chicken followed by Chicken meal would have been better.

Chicken by-products meal -- so what is a by-product? Feet, egg shells, feathers? beaks? entrails? Well, it isn't chicken or they would have called it chicken.

Corn Meal
whole grain sorghum
corn grits
Brewers Rice

-- the reason they put several different types of grain into a carnivor's diet is so that they can count each individually. What this means is that if they used one grain, it would be on the top of the list, because the ingredients have to be listed by how they are represented by weight in the food. The ingredient with the most weight, first. But when you add together four or five different types of grains, or fractions of a single grain, then you are again seeing a lot more grain than meat.

beet pulp

Chicken flavor -- why? if chicken is the first ingredient, then why do we need to add chicken flavor. Unless we need to mask rancid fat flavor or poor quality meats.

Fish meal. The first halfway decent ingredient, though it is generic fish. It would have been better to say Salmon meal, etc. But it falls below chicken flavor on the ingredient list, so there can't be much in there. And if there is, then it is scary for all that chicken flavor -- what is that made up of?

Again, a lot of grain, for a little meat.

In comparison, here is a better food:

orijen large breed puppy:

Boneless chicken*, chicken meal, chicken liver*, whole herring*, boneless turkey*, turkey meal, turkey liver*, whole eggs*, boneless walleye*, whole salmon*, chicken heart*, chicken cartilage*, herring meal, salmon meal, red lentils, green peas, green lentils, chicken liver oil, sun-cured alfalfa, yams*, pea fiber, chickpeas, pumpkin*, butternut squash*, spinach greens*, carrots*, Red Delicious apples*, Bartlett pears*, cranberries*, blueberries*, kelp, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, Enterococcus faecium.

Of course that will run you some greenbacks.

Here's one that isn't too bad, and not too bad on the pocket book either:

Diamond Naturals Chicken and Rice (adult) -- no need to use puppy:

Chicken, chicken meal, whole grain brown rice, white rice, cracked pearled barley, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), oatmeal, dried plain beet pulp, egg product, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor, fish meal, salt, potassium chloride, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

It has chicken and then chicken meal before the conglomeration of grains.

It has multiple grains though, but it doesn't use corn or wheat, which is good.

And it has chicken flavor, which freaks me out some, considering the first two ingredients are chicken. But even so.

Overall, the food is cheap, but has a better list of ingredients than some of the rather pricier brand advertised on TV and Radio.
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Old 04-15-2014, 08:38 PM   #3 (permalink)
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thank you soo much for your help, it is very appreciated ...I feel kind of lost a bit these days with her !
I have another question, when i got her from breeder , 4 days ago , she was very calm and quiet temperament puppy...all my kids we picking her up left and right and she never had any reactions.
Lately shes biting everything, i mean everything and i repeat out loud " No" repetitively just with my voice , but it has zero effect on her. And lately when kids pick her up, she goes and bites people faces !! I am kind of worrying , why the sudden aggressive behavior ?? do we baby her too much or pick up too much ??

Thanks for your help
Andy
Quote:
Originally Posted by selzer View Post
I would not feed either.

Check out the ingredients in pedigree:
Our Ingredients | Really Good Food For Dogs | PEDIGREE

Corn, meat and bone meal, corn gluten meal, animal fat, wheat, chicken by-product meal, beet pulp, brewer's rice etc.

Corn isn't a good ingredient really, it is a cheap filler, and it is found in very cheap dog foods. It does not provide much in the way of nutrition.

Meat and bone meal, is generic meat and bone, could be pork, could be chicken, could be beef, could be whatever is cheapest today.

Corn gluten meal binds dog food together and boosts the protein artificially so it looks like you are actually getting meat in there.

animal fat -- dogs need fat, and it should come from animals, but better ingredients list which animal was used for providing the fat. It is not whatever is cheapest today, it is chicken fat, today, tomorrow, and next week. Then if you do have a dog that has an issue with a specific meat source, you can avoid it altogether.

Wheat is another grain, unnecessary for dogs, and often something dogs can have issue with. It is not a deal breaker for me, but rice is more digestible, and I tend to go with foods with rice in them over wheat.

Beet pulp will help the stool form. Again, not a deal breaker. But not the top of the list either.

And brewer's rice is the cheapest rice they can put in there.

Conclusion, this food has a LOT more grains (which carnivores do not need) than meat, which is what carnivores do need. You will feed much more of this food than a quality food, because Garbage In has to come out. The dog will need more of it because what he needs is a small percentage of the overall product. So you will spend less per bag, but buy more bags of food, and pick up more poop, and with these foods that are of lower quality, they are much more likely to have products preserved in materials known to cause cancer, and colors and flavors that also should not be necessary, sugars. So health is compromised.

Iams is a little better:

Iams pro-active large breed puppy -- a lot better than back when I used it, but still:

Chicken, Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Corn Grits, Brewers Rice, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Flavor, Fish Meal, Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Egg Product, Brewers Dried Yeast, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Choline Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, L-Lysine Monohydrochloride, Fructooligosaccharides, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate), Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (source of vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), DL-Methionine, Rosemary Extract.

Chicken is the first ingredient, BUT Chicken is 70% water, so if you knock out the water as will happen in the extrusion process, Chicken lands much lower on the list of ingredients. Chicken meal or Chicken followed by Chicken meal would have been better.

Chicken by-products meal -- so what is a by-product? Feet, egg shells, feathers? beaks? entrails? Well, it isn't chicken or they would have called it chicken.

Corn Meal
whole grain sorghum
corn grits
Brewers Rice

-- the reason they put several different types of grain into a carnivor's diet is so that they can count each individually. What this means is that if they used one grain, it would be on the top of the list, because the ingredients have to be listed by how they are represented by weight in the food. The ingredient with the most weight, first. But when you add together four or five different types of grains, or fractions of a single grain, then you are again seeing a lot more grain than meat.

beet pulp

Chicken flavor -- why? if chicken is the first ingredient, then why do we need to add chicken flavor. Unless we need to mask rancid fat flavor or poor quality meats.

Fish meal. The first halfway decent ingredient, though it is generic fish. It would have been better to say Salmon meal, etc. But it falls below chicken flavor on the ingredient list, so there can't be much in there. And if there is, then it is scary for all that chicken flavor -- what is that made up of?

Again, a lot of grain, for a little meat.

In comparison, here is a better food:

orijen large breed puppy:

Boneless chicken*, chicken meal, chicken liver*, whole herring*, boneless turkey*, turkey meal, turkey liver*, whole eggs*, boneless walleye*, whole salmon*, chicken heart*, chicken cartilage*, herring meal, salmon meal, red lentils, green peas, green lentils, chicken liver oil, sun-cured alfalfa, yams*, pea fiber, chickpeas, pumpkin*, butternut squash*, spinach greens*, carrots*, Red Delicious apples*, Bartlett pears*, cranberries*, blueberries*, kelp, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, Enterococcus faecium.

Of course that will run you some greenbacks.

Here's one that isn't too bad, and not too bad on the pocket book either:

Diamond Naturals Chicken and Rice (adult) -- no need to use puppy:

Chicken, chicken meal, whole grain brown rice, white rice, cracked pearled barley, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), oatmeal, dried plain beet pulp, egg product, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor, fish meal, salt, potassium chloride, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

It has chicken and then chicken meal before the conglomeration of grains.

It has multiple grains though, but it doesn't use corn or wheat, which is good.

And it has chicken flavor, which freaks me out some, considering the first two ingredients are chicken. But even so.

Overall, the food is cheap, but has a better list of ingredients than some of the rather pricier brand advertised on TV and Radio.
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Old 04-15-2014, 08:49 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I had a little bugger that would bite me in the nose every time I picked him up. Hard! LOL! I told his new owners that he bites! He was just being a puppy, and that schnoz was a good target for teeth.

I would be careful about letting the children pick the puppy up. It isn't something that they should be doing a lot of anyway. Tell them to get down to the puppy's level. Redirect any inappropriate biting and stop the game immediately if the puppy gets rough. Stand up and keep hands and face away, from the little teeth. Or put the puppy in its safe place to give the kids a break.

Also, do not offer fingers to the puppy to bite. A closed fist is much harder for a young puppy to get their teeth into, it isn't a good chew thing. Teach the kids to close their hands if the puppy starts biting. I told my niece to do this when she was five, and when she was six, and helping to socialize another bunch of puppies, I saw her do it on her own.
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Heidi, RA CGC
SG3 Odessa, SchH1, Kkl1, AD
Ninja, RN CGC & Milla, RN CGC
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Old 04-15-2014, 09:09 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Thank you Jenna, I guess a pure puppy phase...
Thanks again


Quote:
Originally Posted by selzer View Post
I had a little bugger that would bite me in the nose every time I picked him up. Hard! LOL! I told his new owners that he bites! He was just being a puppy, and that schnoz was a good target for teeth.

I would be careful about letting the children pick the puppy up. It isn't something that they should be doing a lot of anyway. Tell them to get down to the puppy's level. Redirect any inappropriate biting and stop the game immediately if the puppy gets rough. Stand up and keep hands and face away, from the little teeth. Or put the puppy in its safe place to give the kids a break.

Also, do not offer fingers to the puppy to bite. A closed fist is much harder for a young puppy to get their teeth into, it isn't a good chew thing. Teach the kids to close their hands if the puppy starts biting. I told my niece to do this when she was five, and when she was six, and helping to socialize another bunch of puppies, I saw her do it on her own.
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Old 04-15-2014, 09:20 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Hi, I'm Sue, I changed my signature to knock off my departed friends, to give me some room, but then it wouldn't let me add anything. Fine. But then a couple days later, it reverted to my old signature, and added them back on its own.

So my departed friends are now misbehaving ghosts, I guess. They will not be forgotten.
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Heidi, RA CGC
SG3 Odessa, SchH1, Kkl1, AD
Ninja, RN CGC & Milla, RN CGC
Joy, Star Puppy, RN CGC
Dolly CGC & Bear CGC
Gretta
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Old 04-15-2014, 09:46 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Oh sorry thanks Sue, much appreciated.

QUOTE=selzer;5381825]Hi, I'm Sue, I changed my signature to knock off my departed friends, to give me some room, but then it wouldn't let me add anything. Fine. But then a couple days later, it reverted to my old signature, and added them back on its own.

So my departed friends are now misbehaving ghosts, I guess. They will not be forgotten.[/QUOTE]
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Old 04-16-2014, 12:11 AM   #8 (permalink)
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over thirty years ago, i was faced with the same bitting issue. our trainer at the time instructed me to insert my thumb into pups mouth and hold it there for as long as you can, those little teeth are like needles. all i can say is it worked for us and we still have our thumbs. i am far from an expert on these issues.
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Old 04-16-2014, 01:51 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Iams is terrible!, Don't feed it to your dog. If you insist on feeding kibble go and find a high meat content one. Orijen is what i used until i put my pup on raw (he was on raw at four months).
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Old 04-16-2014, 03:34 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Just my 2 cents worth- FROMM Gold LARGE BREED PUPPY to 6 months then switch to Fromm Gold Adult. Fromm is 1 of the oldest, most trusted dog food companies in the US, EXCELLENT INGREDIENTS, with NO recalls ever- IMHO, Bob
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