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Would You Issue a Refund?

18K views 159 replies 47 participants last post by  wolfstraum 
#1 ·
I am hoping some of the breeders will weigh in on this...

My husband and I purchased a GSD from a reputable breeder after quite a bit of research and lurking around this site. I've seen very respectable comments regarding this breeder and breeding program here and elsewhere, and the 13 week old pup we brought home was amazing and everything we'd expected.

We had the pup for less than 72 hours.... within the first day, both my husband and my son began to exhibit signs of being allergic (my husband later admitted that he had felt the same symptoms when we had visited the breeder several weeks earlier, but at the time he thought he was coming down with a cold). My husband contacted a good friend of ours who works for a large local medical center - as a favor he did a quick skin test to be certain, and it was positive. We had no reason to believe he was allergic prior to this (we also had no reason to believe that he was allergic to Penicillin, as he'd taken it multiple times in his life, until the day he had a severe anaphylactic reaction to that and landed in the ER - no idea if the two are related!).

After a long and heart-wrenching discussion, we decided we could not keep the puppy and subject our son to a youth of allergies or allergy medication. I immediately contacted the breeder, with the end result being that I returned the pup to the breeder the following day.

I did not discuss nor request any type of refund upon returning the puppy as it was upsetting enough to begin with, however, I did contact the breeder afterword and ask if considerations for either a full or partial refund would be made given that we tried to do the right thing and return the puppy as quickly as possible.

I was told that a refund is not possible, and per the terms of the contract, which we were never asked to sign, we are not owed a refund. My husband and I are reasonable people and we understand that finding suitable homes for puppies is a time consuming process, however, it's difficult not to feel as if we were "taken" assuming the puppy was re-homed, especially if it happened quickly.

Do you feel we should pursue this further? I am NOT suggesting that I intend to take legal action in any way - I have simply not yet responded to the breeder's original response, and I'd like to know if other breeders would consider a refund under these circumstances.

Thank you in advance.
 
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#80 ·
Flipside, when people don't do their own homework, but want to be spoonfed recommendations, they are to blame just as much as the person recommending a breeder.

Best way to find a good dog is to go out and see dogs in training, and chat with the handlers. Research bloodlines and pedigrees and try to find a breeder that is matching up what works.
It's super easy to post a thread on choosing a breeder, but there is no point in it if you don't know what you don't know.
 
#84 ·
How do I know what to look for at these training sessions? What if they brought their one good dog out of a hundred. Nice to go visit their kennel but what if they are 1000 miles away?

I can't read a pedigree. Don't know if your way is the "best" way but it is one way. I think you can get a professional to help.

Would you go observe a construction site then build your own house or would you consult professionals if you had no clue?
 
#81 ·
Also, consider the age of the dog. I see a lot of people on forums comment that they are absolutely thrilled with their dog and it's 10 weeks old. How about people who have dogs that are healthy adults? Did they accomplish the training and titles they wanted? Would they go back to the breeder for another puppy?
 
#82 ·
Also, consider the age of the dog. I see a lot of people on forums comment that they are absolutely thrilled with their dog and it's 10 weeks old. How about people who have dogs that are healthy adults? Did they accomplish the training and titles they wanted? Would they go back to the breeder for another puppy?
God that kills me as well..."I've had this dog a week! It's the smartest dog in the world! It already knows sit!" Everyone of our dogs knew sit within a week... And...dog is super healthy! No sign of HD!

I know you're all talking about how you'd give the money back, but what if the breeder has something going on where they really can't have the dog around and its a huge inconvenience that the dog was returned 3 days after going home? What if they now have to board this dog because they're planning a vacation and had everything set for after the puppies were gone?

Yes...many of us go to breeders with long waiting lists, and when 8 puppies are born, there are 16 people hoping to get one. But there are plenty of good, reputable, or not so reputable breeders that don't have this problem. They sell 8, they don't have a home for one if it gets returned. They've been turning people away for months saying they're sold out and those people went elsewhere and now have pups...most people aren't willing to wait around on a waiting list for months. On top of that, I remember how angry the forum gets when a breeder holds a deposit for months or years through failed breedings, so I never recommend anyone puts a deposit down without their puppy being on the ground.

Some breeders (on this forum) have multiple litters down at a time. Expenses get covered by the fact that a litter just went home. There might not be $1200 sitting in the bank account even though its only been 3 days.

Personally, I want to think that I'd give back the money, but who knows? I'm surprised OP didn't call the breeder and ask this question before returning the dog. All this could've been avoided with a phone call. Maybe if OP found out the money wasn't going to be returned, OP could've sold the dog to a friend or family member that was looking for one and the breeder would've been happy with that arrangement.
 
#83 · (Edited)
All this could've been avoided with a phone call. Maybe if OP found out the money wasn't going to be returned, OP could've sold the dog to a friend or family member that was looking for one and the breeder would've been happy with that arrangement.
Ask the question before you place the deposit. I know of someone that asked a breeder what happens if the pup doesn't work out for IPO. Breeder right then and there discontinued any relationship. Breeder was protecting themselves(puppy) from a situation where the dog would be rehomed instead of loved if it was a wash. I understand the potential buyers question, because she was looking for her future IPO competitor. Hard to find green dogs reasonably priced with little foundation placed that are good to go in the sport. And not knowing if the pup chosen can do what it takes is a risk too.
 
#85 ·
I don't think many people buy a dog thinking they are going to have to return it...I think when you buy a dog you need to take responsibility for the breeder you choose even if someone on a board recommended them...and in the end I think it boils down to meeting the person and deciding if your trust them...Funny when I bought Rorie the breeder promised me another dog if she wasn't a schutzhund candidate...she is...I am not...not sure what happens then...its just life I guess
 
#86 ·
How do I know what to look for at these training sessions? What if they brought their one good dog out of a hundred. Nice to go visit their kennel but what if they are 1000 miles away?

I can't read a pedigree. Don't know if your way is the "best" way but it is one way. I think you can get a professional to help.

Would you go observe a construction site then build your own house or would you consult professionals if you had no clue?
How do you know if someone is a "professional" if you don't do a bit of homework? I'm not talking about going to a breeders place and watch them train(though nothing wrong with that) but go to some clubs or whereever and look at the dogs...how they work, their temperaments do show thru when they train. If you don't know what to look for, keep going, it will eventually appear to you and you'll see what you really love and sometimes see what you don't really want to own. Like I posted, we don't know what we don't know. It isn't as easy as asking a question and getting a black and white answer. Experience is usually the best way to learn. There are some really good facebook pages that are informative on lines, first hand experience chiming in on dogs pedigree's. I've learned quite a bit from those pages.
 
#91 ·
I'm not arguing with you. I'm sure you know what you're talking about. But, I did ask the question and did eventually get a black and white answer. I threw out all the recommendations that just came as one word. The name of the Kennel.

I did accept the recommendation by the person who gave it with an explanation. I was able to not only research the breeder recommended but also able to research the breeder giving the recommendation. I'll have to take my chances on that. Me going to watch the dog train will ad nothing to the equation.

I bet a talented trainer can make an ok dog look a lot better than I could make a great dog look.
 
#87 ·
Harley120R, the more I observe dogs and train dogs the more I just go with my gut :) It's your family/lifestyle, your goals, YOUR dog. You are absolutely right that many people will say what you want to hear and show you only what they think you want to see, some even with good intentions and unknowingly kennel blind. You don't have to be an expert to observe a dog and interact with that dog and make some judgment calls about whether YOU think that type of dog will work in your home/situation. Even the dogs I've sought out as sport prospects were chosen not based solely on the performance or titles of the parents (and in one case, even in spite of), but based on the temperament I saw and interacted with around the house, casually on the sidelines of training, how the bitch interacted with the puppies and with people coming to see the litter, etc. I can't predict with 100% accuracy whether any dog will turn out exactly as I'd hoped as far as training and titling goals but at least I can try to find the best fit for my family and lifestyle so the dog fits in our home regardless.
 
#89 · (Edited)
Well, as you've pointed out many times, you never buy a puppy with a contract, so you have the right to sell if it is a wash, or if there are problems with the dog fitting in.
Though without buying/selling on a contract creates problems....
Easy to rehome a puppy when the breeder allows the buyer to do whatever they want with their dog. I guess the moral of this thread is don't buy a pup on a contract.
Not sure though, how many responsible breeders are ok with what they produce being moved from home to home(or bred without health tests or titles). I think most want the dog to stay where they've carefully screened/ and placed it. And don't want their kennel name associated with poor breeding practices.
 
#92 ·
I've bought puppies with contracts, only one (Nikon) hasn't had one. I don't *care* if they come with a contract or guarantee, but almost all bought in the US do. I won't buy limited registration if that's what you mean.
 
#97 ·
You bring up another point I wanted to ask about. Limited registration. Is it common for a breeder to charge one price for limited registration and ask for a higher price for full registration. Or give limited registration with the option to upgrade after a couple years after seeing how the dog turns out? Seems weird to me.
 
#96 ·
The health guarantee(hips/elbows?) will usually replace the pup, but won't pay for medical. And how many really will give up a puppy they've fallen in love with?
What about chronic allergies or other daily management type issues? Those aren't usually worded in a contract. Onyx was sold on a limited and I'd never, ever return her to her 'breeder'. And even if I did, I wouldn't want a pup from that breeder as a replacement.
She's the reason I say do your own research and support the breeder that is producing the GSD that should be represented.
 
#98 ·
The OP had the dog less than three days, not three weeks.

Yes, it is harder to find a home for a dog that is 11 weeks old than it is to find a home for a dog that is 8 weeks, especially when you have been telling everyone for a month, that the litter is spoken for.

But, this dog was 13 weeks old already. The breeder did not turn down seventeen people to sell this dog to the OP who sends it back after a test drive. No. This transaction cost the breeder zilch. They should fork over a refund.

I give my people 2 weeks, whenever they get the dog. So if they got the dog at 14 weeks, bring it back and 16, they get their money back. If they got their dog at 8 weeks, and I have turned down other people, and I get the dog back at 10 weeks -- I did, I got a dog back after 11 days. The owner was refunded. It's my problem. I sold the dog to someone who's kid wanted a dachsund. I was worried about it, and was just as happy to get the pup back.

I sold her again without any trouble at all.

If someone takes a pup home at 8 weeks, and then brings it back in a year, it may be irresponsible to just sell the dog without giving it some time to acclimate to its surroundings, work with it and do some training. With training, and socialization, and time spent with the puppy it may be worth the same as a 8 week old puppy to the right buyer. Chances are its going to be in your home, going to classes, getting vetted, etc for a while until you find the right buyer.

Most decent buyers will give the dog back to the breeder rather than dumping it at the vet. I will offer to pick the puppy up, so they are not put out on gas or any other expense. I don't think breeders should feel compelled to buy a puppy back.

But if someone realizes right away that it isn't working out, then refund the money and call a few of the people you turned down. Probably one of them will be happy to take the puppy. And, holding onto the original purchase price, when the dog was out of your house for a couple of day, is theft. There is no ethical excuse or scenario, unless they let the dog get hit by a car, or drink antifreeze. If the pup is alive, and the people realize that it isn't working, whatever the reason, give them their money back and resell the puppy.

It is a business, however much we don't like to hear about it in those terms. In any business you want happy customers. Happy customers come back. Happy customers say good things about you. But in the dog-business it is more. We care about those little fur balls. We want happy customers, because we want our puppies to be in homes where they are likely to succeed. If we find out that there is a reason that this dog/family match is going to be miserable, bring him back and we'll find another home where he is better suited.

Going to a breeder, a puppy buyer should ask or like hearing that the breeder will take the puppy back at any point in their lives. But they should be going into this with the idea that that will never happen. I would never expect a puppy buyer to ask ALL of the possible scenarios that might make this not work out, like what if one of us suddenly develops and allergy to the dog?
 
#107 ·
Yes, it is harder to find a home for a dog that is 11 weeks old than it is to find a home for a dog that is 8 weeks, especially when you have been telling everyone for a month, that the litter is spoken for.
I was reading the "Who to select a Breeder" section in this forum. And it said to stay away from breeders that lower the price of their puppies as they get older. In fact, it said the price of the puppy should go up as it got older because it would be better trained. Wouldn't an 11 or 13 week old puppy, if being properly socialized, crate trained etc, be worth more and more expensive than an 8 week old?

Did I read that wrong or was it poorly written. I'd like to know because I might have passed up on a great deal today. :confused:
 
#114 ·
I agree with that, & the dog with a limited amount of training,vetting, and health testing from a breeder or a broker is usually quadruple what a rescue would ask.
 
#115 ·
Some people do it that aren't the breeder. In certain circles, it's really not all that rare for a puppy to be sent to someone else for anything from a few weeks to many months, either to just "grow out" or to be trained/socialized with a certain foundation that that person can provide. I've seen it quite a bit in Schutzhund as well as flyball, both of which you don't start training in earnest until a dog is more physically and mentally developed but have a better chance (well, more choice) of finding what you want in a puppy. A friend of mine sent me one of the best puppies from her first litter and when we had someone that wanted to buy a puppy of a certain age with specific things done, that is what I provided for them. He was raised a bit differently than how I would have raised my own puppy but was purchased for a specific purpose and we were able to provide what they were looking for at that age. You can't really make (in $$$) what you put in, but some people enjoy doing it.
 
#120 ·
There is a market for green dogs....but it all depends on who is doing the training and what the purpose/goal is.
I'm glad you are doing this mycobraracr, wish you success!
 
#121 ·
Yeah I think its a great thing to do...and I think there is definitely a market there. But to make a living from that type of work? Not sure how possible it would be. If you enjoy working dogs, raising a green dog or two every year...its more of a hobby than a way to make a living.

I think "alpha dogs" pretty much spelled out how you can make a living with that type of work. Have a kennel of almost 300 dogs that you're training and selling. Plus government contracts always help...
 
#123 ·
Thanks! I have no intentions of making a living out of it. I figure I can do one or two at a time and see how it goes. At this point I just want to make sure people can look at me and say I'm honest, trustworthy, and that you know what you're getting with me. I just know, it's very hard to find a nice green dog in the states. I have looked with little success, and a friend recently was looking, came up empty so he imported a green dog from Germany.
 
#126 ·
What an awesome way to gain experience as well! Are you going to stick to one breeder to receive dogs from, or try different ones?
 
#135 ·
I'd rather use the term responsible instead of reputable. Reputable can mean many things, and some aren't kind. If you don't know the difference in what to look for in a good breeder, there is a forum here and stickies to help inform.
 
#142 ·
ENOUGH!! There will be more than one getting warnings tonight!!

ADMIN Lisa
 
#143 ·
Wow, this tangential discussion went south really quickly. Yikes!

OP, please do post an update on your situation despite all of this. I really do hope that you and the breeder are able to come to an agreement that is fair for both parties.

And, FWIW, I think you deserve full or partial refund.
 
#144 ·
Me too, you can't not watch that when it's on! OK enough derailment of this thread...I stand by my story, the OP deserves a full refund (but should cover the cost incurred to return the dog).
 
#147 ·
Then they should change the policy of calling out breeders on the forum publicly. Only forum I know where the seller is immune from buyer feedback. Most people will only buy one dog from a particular breeder in their lifetime. Where is the incentive of the breeder to be honorable? A car dealer would be bashed and worry about their public opinion. Not dog breeders. I'm starting to disdain the dog world or is it just this site and the click on here?
 
#148 ·
It's the owners of the site not wanting to spend their time and $$$ to host a venue for those sorts of complaints. It's not the purpose of this board to dispute he-said-she-said between breeders and sellers. Use BBB, Ripoff Report, or even the Pedigree Database. IMO, a public web forum is not the best place to be making decisions about which breeders to use so is not the best place for complaints and disputes. The majority of the sub-forums here are not related to breeding or purchasing dogs.
 
#150 ·
Then bad recommendations shouldn't be allowed either. Can I sue the host site if I get a bad recommendation? I hear your explanation but if you have ever ventured out of the puppy world you know it is bogus. Extremely bogus. A breeder is going to sue because his pups suck and was called out on it? Good luck selling another pup. Pups are property, let's not forget. If you said the car I sold you was lame, I'd make it right before you could bash me. Me thinks breeders be supporting this site with money. Money talks. I know that. Love of the breed my donkey. It's huge business.
 
#151 ·
guess I missed all the nastiness.

Breeders are not supporting this site with money, it is a privately owned forum which has it's own set of rules. Simple, you don't like them, there are other forums out there where you can bash away and get your fix.

I agree with Lies. You want a good dog, do your homework, do background checks, get the names of previous puppy buyers, get the names of those puppies that are now adults. Educate yourself.

I've had 5 german shepherds in my adult life, and haven't had a breeder issue nor a terminal health issue with any of them.

I think this thread needs to go back on topic or start one of your own/
 
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