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Would You Issue a Refund?

18K views 159 replies 47 participants last post by  wolfstraum 
#1 ·
I am hoping some of the breeders will weigh in on this...

My husband and I purchased a GSD from a reputable breeder after quite a bit of research and lurking around this site. I've seen very respectable comments regarding this breeder and breeding program here and elsewhere, and the 13 week old pup we brought home was amazing and everything we'd expected.

We had the pup for less than 72 hours.... within the first day, both my husband and my son began to exhibit signs of being allergic (my husband later admitted that he had felt the same symptoms when we had visited the breeder several weeks earlier, but at the time he thought he was coming down with a cold). My husband contacted a good friend of ours who works for a large local medical center - as a favor he did a quick skin test to be certain, and it was positive. We had no reason to believe he was allergic prior to this (we also had no reason to believe that he was allergic to Penicillin, as he'd taken it multiple times in his life, until the day he had a severe anaphylactic reaction to that and landed in the ER - no idea if the two are related!).

After a long and heart-wrenching discussion, we decided we could not keep the puppy and subject our son to a youth of allergies or allergy medication. I immediately contacted the breeder, with the end result being that I returned the pup to the breeder the following day.

I did not discuss nor request any type of refund upon returning the puppy as it was upsetting enough to begin with, however, I did contact the breeder afterword and ask if considerations for either a full or partial refund would be made given that we tried to do the right thing and return the puppy as quickly as possible.

I was told that a refund is not possible, and per the terms of the contract, which we were never asked to sign, we are not owed a refund. My husband and I are reasonable people and we understand that finding suitable homes for puppies is a time consuming process, however, it's difficult not to feel as if we were "taken" assuming the puppy was re-homed, especially if it happened quickly.

Do you feel we should pursue this further? I am NOT suggesting that I intend to take legal action in any way - I have simply not yet responded to the breeder's original response, and I'd like to know if other breeders would consider a refund under these circumstances.

Thank you in advance.
 
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#31 ·
I think your being very nice about it all:)

I guess the things I find disturbing is, the breeder says 'per the contract', but you don't have/didn't SIGN a contract.../ you returned the dog within 72 hours, drove over 1000 miles??? YIKES!..and their lack of communication with you after the fact.

I seriously doubt the eye thing, was from 'pulling' on it's leash..sounds like just something to be brought up after the fact,,as for financial hardship? Well I know most breeders aren't millionaires, but there is no reason to 'avoid' the topic with you, and the 'right' thing to do would be to refund you some of the money..

I know there are always 3 sides to a story, this just doesn't sit well with me:( Hope you can get some type of resolution
 
#32 ·
did you have good communications with the breeder BEFORE driving out the 1,000 miles?
how did you present your problem ?
you could have found out about a refund , negotiated on when you might or if you might receive one . I think it is totally unfair to not get the refund but that is up to whatever agreement you and that breeder had .
 
#33 ·
The very least the breeder can do is issue to you what they are able to sell the puppy for minus expenses the puppy incurs. That could mean you have to wait and could also mean they keep the puppy and don't sell. It would at least be a good will gesture. It would not be right for the breeder to sell the puppy twice and keep all monies.
 
#36 ·
There are two sides to every story, yes. But, the dog was returned within 72 hours. If some people want to give a 100% refund after the dog is full grown, well bully for them. I don't think anyone should expect that from a breeder. Certainly not for something like, the dog didn't grow big enough for over-sized me. If the dog was a dwarf or under the standard, let's talk.

Be that as it may be, this pup was 3 days -- many places have a law stating that you have so many hours for ANY major purchase, including puppies. The OP acted the way we would hope people on this site would act, she returned the dog to the breeder, and my guess is that the dog was in good shape when she returned it.

I am pretty surprised that the breeder didn't offer something. Fine, I'm broke too, but a guy bought a dog from me for his kid and the kid wanted a dachsund. After 11 days, he told me he wanted to bring her back because she was chasing his cats and bit one. We are talking a nine week old puppy. I said, bring her back. I told him I had to get a duplicate litter certificate and would send him a check after I received it. This was true, but also, I wanted to make sure his check cleared, and the time for them to stop payment or whatever would be up. I had no reason to doubt this guy, but I didn't know him either. He told me to keep $100 for my trouble, which was nice. I had spent some gas on the deal, and the duplicate certificate. I would have refunded the whole amount though.

Since I give people 2 weeks, I usually do not spend the money that comes in on a puppy until I feel relatively confident they are keeping the puppy -- 2 weeks, minimum.

Yes, the money we get for the puppies goes to the vet and for food and for other needs that they have. Certainly. But a person who doesn't have the puppy after 72 hours, that person should not have paid for something they don't have. It's despicable.

It costs the breeder a duplicate litter certificate, not the cost of a puppy.
 
#37 · (Edited)
If some people want to give a 100% refund after the dog is full grown, well bully for them. I don't think anyone should expect that from a breeder. Certainly not for something like, the dog didn't grow big enough for over-sized me. If the dog was a dwarf or under the standard, let's talk.
This is what defines an extraordinary and extremely responsible breeder from a byb. One who will do everything possible to keep their puppies out of a shelter or crap home. It's not supposed to be ALL about the money.

It is also why I was instantly impressed by Carmen...she is an extraordinary person.
 
#40 ·
sunflowers>was going to fix your 'does' to knows but you beat me to it, I was laughing my butt off,,sorry to go OT:)
 
#41 ·
I was instantly impressed when I met Carmen. I continue to be impressed when I read her posts here. I was impressed everytime she came to watch Gus' training sessions. I cannot say enough about the spectacular person this woman is. Her knowledge baffles me.
I am not impressed with breeders who don't title and prove their dogs prior to breeding and who would not do everything possible to keep their puppies out of harms way...even if it meant buying an adult back.
I also know there are more crappy breeders than there are good. Identifying the good from bad is NOT always an easy task especially on a forum. It is very easy for a less than desirable breeder to look and sound good from behind a computer screen.
 
#45 ·
:whistle::toasting: Saphire, we really need to go have a beer together sometime!! ;-)
 
#43 ·
sun> you were quick too:) it was funny:)
 
#48 ·
Actually, I've only ever seen one post in these forums from the breeder I'm referring to. I did, however, say that I've seen recommendations from others in the forums regarding this breeder and had PM'd some regarding their thoughts and nothing but good things were said.
 
#54 ·
Actually, I've only ever seen one post in these forums from the breeder I'm referring to. I did, however, say that I've seen recommendations from others in the forums regarding this breeder and had PM'd some regarding their thoughts and nothing but good things were said.

Not a breeder here. So non breeder opinion here.

First of all, when asking about this breeder, you can't cover every situation on a forum. This is something that probably should have been covered and discussed before buying the dog between you and the breeder.

I also think a responsible breeder should refund 100% of the money for someone having a medical condition due to the dog they sold. There is a big difference from someone that just bit off more than they could chew or just doesn't want the dog now, excuse and someone who is having a medical situation.


Is there a way you could have resold the dog through the breeder? I mean, if there is no signed contract, and they sell the dog again, that just seems kind of underhanded. To me you should be intitled to some refund or sale price if the dog is resold.

Just for what it's worth. I also have allergies to animals. They get pretty bad sometimes. I treat mine with allergy shots every six months and sometimes pill medication on top of that. So I understand what they are going through with those allergies. It's no fun. I also understand letting go of your pup was not an easy decision. That had to be rough.
 
#49 ·
Can I ask if the people that gave recommendations 'have' the breeders dogs? Or where they just 'recomendations'? Just curious.

There are some breeders that when things go good, they are all over it, and then there are the same, when things go bad they just ignore/write you off, they don't want to hear it or deal with it..

Certainly that is just a general statement, and to add, there are MANY really good breeders out there that will stand behind their dogs to the death.

Sometimes I read posts like this and just shake my head, and just don't understand:(
 
#51 ·
Can I ask if the people that gave recommendations 'have' the breeders dogs? Or where they just 'recomendations'? Just curious.
I was curious about that too...

I wish you the best of luck and hopefully you'll be able to re-coup some money..
 
#52 ·
We had this exact same situation happen with a male pup in our M litter. We did refund the purchase price of the puppy once he was returned, though the customer was responsible for the shipping costs to return the puppy. I felt it was the right thing to do and really no big deal on our end as we were able to sell the puppy to someone else for the same puppy price. Sure, it was inconvenient and we did incur some minor costs, but nothing significant and nothing close to the heartbreak that the owner suffered when he realized he couldn't keep the puppy.
 
#53 ·
It would be so much easier if breeders who produced problems, or who treated their buyers with complete lack of ethics, always produced problems and always acted unethically. The thing is, probably lots of people have had perfectly nice puppies from the breeder -- there is no argument on that by the op, the pup was everything they wanted. And their transactions, if they actually bought puppies and were not just spouting advice about where to buy a pup, their transactions probably went perfectly smoothly. Because they didn't ask for their money back.

Everyone was indeed happy. They gave good recommendations. And most of the time, that will be the case. A crappy breeders is not going to have 98 out of 100 people dissatisfied.

It is a lesson on the giving and the taking of recommendations. Definitely we want to hear from people who have purchased from someone, the good and the bad. But even if several people have a positive experience, it really doesn't mean that everything will go well.

I guess you have to listen to other people's experience/recommendations and weigh it as one of the pieces of the puzzle.
 
#55 ·
It would be so much easier if breeders who produced problems, or who treated their buyers with complete lack of ethics, always produced problems and always acted unethically. The thing is, probably lots of people have had perfectly nice puppies from the breeder -- there is no argument on that by the op, the pup was everything they wanted. And their transactions, if they actually bought puppies and were not just spouting advice about where to buy a pup, their transactions probably went perfectly smoothly. Because they didn't ask for their money back.

Everyone was indeed happy. They gave good recommendations. And most of the time, that will be the case. A crappy breeders is not going to have 98 out of 100 people dissatisfied.

It is a lesson on the giving and the taking of recommendations. Definitely we want to hear from people who have purchased from someone, the good and the bad. But even if several people have a positive experience, it really doesn't mean that everything will go well.

I guess you have to listen to other people's experience/recommendations and weigh it as one of the pieces of the puzzle.

This is very true^^^^

This could be a very good learning thread in what buyers should discuss at the time of buying the dog. Refunds should be a major point of emphasis in those discussions at the time of sale. That way there is no gray area.
 
#57 ·
I am not a breeder but a trainer and in your case I would have refunded the full amount if you showed written proof from the allergist. It reminded me of a lady in my class who dropped out and asked her money back I asked her why she decided to drop out and she said that her Chihuahua got sick from the clicker. I told her to get a written statement from the vet that the dog did indeed get sick from the clicker in which case I would have refunded her her money. Of course she couldn't get that statement so I did not refund her the money.
I think it was unethical and possibly damaging to your breeder's reputation to let you down.
 
#58 ·
I have refunded the full purchase price when someone had the pup for about a month and then said his son was allergic. Have to admit i did wonder how much the allergies were related to all the white carpet I had seen in the pics but I am sometimes a suspicious person.

I try and be guided by what I think is the best thing for the dog involved and block out everything else...
 
#59 ·
This mindset, placing the welfare of the dog first in all things, is what qualifies responsible breeders IMHO. You pick dogs to breed based on the welfare of the litter, husbandry, socialization and early training based on enabling stable dogs, and homes for puppies based on the welfare you feel they will provide.

I think if a breeder is following this model, and utilizing help from experienced, knowledgeable breeders, they are what I would consider a responsible breeder.

David Winners
 
#60 ·
I haven’t commented on this thread because I have never purchased a dog from a breeder, and I never will because it is my personal preference to adopt from a shelter/rescue.

But, I just wanted to say to those breeders who have responded to this thread how great I think your responses have been… putting the interest of the dog above all else!

@ Carmspack and Chris Wild,… while I know I have never met either one of you, I would not hesitate to refer someone to your kennels - based not only on your individual posts here, but also on the mindset those who have purchased dogs from you have about breeders.

@Chris Wild, I have met some of your dogs in real life (and their owners) and I have been impressed with both.
 
#62 ·
Not a breeder, but it seems that refunding your money would be the ethical thing to do. There are laws about being able to inspect/return items within a certain amount of time. You might also want to look up unjust enrichment.

As for breeders, I had a horrible experience with a breeder who was highly recommended on this board. For now on I have decided to only ask for information from people who actually had a problem with the breeder. I want to know how a breeder treats his/her customers when a problem arises.
 
#63 ·
A lot of people recommend breeders that they know nothing about based on what they see on the breeder's website. They say something like: I love her dogs (based on pictures posted on the breeder's website or on here), and would not hesitate to recommend this breeder (based on the fact that their name may come up often).

They have never dealt with the breeder, have never seen or met the dogs in person, and they themselves may not have ever bought a dog from a breeder, their dogs having been all rescues, so they may not even have a base-line of personal experience with ANY breeder to make recommendations. Not referring to anyone in particular, just generalizing from many similar posts I've seen over the years.

When people consider going with a breeder, they need to ask for a bunch of references, find people that own dogs from the breeder on their own, and get feedback like that.
 
#65 ·
A lot of people recommend breeders that they know nothing about based on what they see on the breeder's website. They say something like: I love her dogs (based on pictures posted on the breeder's website or on here), and would not hesitate to recommend this breeder (based on the fact that their name may come up often).

They have never dealt with the breeder, have never seen or met the dogs in person, and they themselves may not have ever bought a dog from a breeder, their dogs having been all rescues, so they may not even have a base-line of personal experience with ANY breeder to make recommendations. Not referring to anyone in particular, just generalizing from many similar posts I've seen over the years.
Just in case this is in reference to my earlier post, I will clarify :)

I would have no problem referring any of my friends in real life to the kennels I named if they were interested in purchasing a GSD. I know my friends and trust that they would do additional research before making any final purchase decision.

If I didn't know them well enough to know that about them, I would give them generic "How to find a breeder" advice.

I have never, and would never, make breeder recommendations to people I do not know on an Internet forum. I typically don’t even look at those threads, much less reply.
 
#64 ·
Yup...huge problem on this forum. People recommending breeders they have no experience with except for a few posts here and there on this forum. I've always found an issue with that, especially once I started actually meeting dogs from kennels and breeders in real life. Things are really different when you step away from the computer screen.

If you look at everyone's signature, you'll notice very very very few people have a dog from the same breeder. I've met a few dogs from the same kennel, but its rare. If a breeder has 5 or more litters a year, there's a chance you meet a couple dogs over a period of a few years if they're in your area. So few dogs travel far, and most dogs stay within the area. Many go to pet homes, which are never heard from or seen again, and then there are a few that are shown/trialed that you get to see.

It's really not about the breeder being ethical, moral, reputable, whatever. Sadly, sometimes people don't act the way we want them to or expect them to. Dogs lose value very quickly if there isn't training on them. Most puppy buyers want their dogs in the door at 8 weeks old. There are some that are looking for an older one, but its rarer. Breeder could be out money, time, ect.

It's funny...we want to treat dogs like they're more than just property, but as soon as a dispute over money comes up, property rights and laws start getting pulled in. Laws about right of return, money back, ect gets brought up as if this is just another thing...and yet if the breeder treats their puppies like property, they get questioned and called out for that as well.
 
#66 ·
It's really not about the breeder being ethical, moral, reputable, whatever. Sadly, sometimes people don't act the way we want them to or expect them to. Dogs lose value very quickly if there isn't training on them. Most puppy buyers want their dogs in the door at 8 weeks old. There are some that are looking for an older one, but its rarer. Breeder could be out money, time, ect.

It's funny...we want to treat dogs like they're more than just property, but as soon as a dispute over money comes up, property rights and laws start getting pulled in. Laws about right of return, money back, ect gets brought up as if this is just another thing...and yet if the breeder treats their puppies like property, they get questioned and called out for that as well.
Animals are considered "goods" when sold whether we like it or not. You might want to check out: Animal Legal & Historical Center - Michigan State University College of Law
 
#70 ·
I no longer recommend breeders on here after I turned out to be wrong about a breeder I dealt with, I will say "I know John Doe has a couple of their dogs and they are happy with them, speak to John Doe about his dogs and his relationship with said breeder."

I personally have never met a respectable, reputable GSD breeder.

Also, I don't remember the exact wording in my contract with my Dalmatian breeder but I believe it's if I return him within 6 months I get a full refund, if I return him within 1 year I get half a refund.
 
#79 ·
As far as recommending breeders. People shouldn't do it unless they know exactly what they are talking about. I've learned that the short time I've been reading this forum.

There is no way anyone should recommend a breeder because they simply read their website and liked the look of their dogs.

No recommendation should be based on the fact that a person once talked to the breeder and they seemed like a nice person. I'd rather buy a quality dog from a mean person than a less quality dog from a nice person.

A recommendation shouldn't be based on the one bit of knowledge that you know someone here that bought a dog from breeder xyz and they seem happy with their dog. Most people aren't going to admit they don't like their dog and a sample of one just isn't enough.

I've been publicly recommend breeders and asked about others in private then I get PM's or answers saying to run the other direction. It's my guess, there are many bad breeders but they are made common knowledge because of the policy not to give bad reviews openly. So, the only individuals that know are those that ask specifically about a breeder and get PM's from people or you get lucky enough to get involved with someone that gets around and he/she personally knows who is a quality breeder first hand.

That's my very amature knowledge.
 
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