Taking the value out of a dog - German Shepherd Dog Forums

Increase font size: 0, 10, 25, 50%

GermanShepherds.com is the premier German Shepherd Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-14-2013, 01:47 PM   #1 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Jeff. County, NY
Posts: 9,001
Default Taking the value out of a dog

There have been a couple of topics about re-homing working dogs lately and that the dogs generally stay within the community because they are of value and I'm not talking about monetary value but genetic value, working value. The dogs are valuable to somebody and that is why people in the world of Schutzhund generally have not a problem to sell their dogs and find them the perfect home within the community.

Is the dog spayed... that value is gone and it drives me crazy to see really nice working dogs, struggling to find a home because they got spayed by the speuter crazy community.
Mrs.K is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-14-2013, 01:59 PM   #2 (permalink)
Crowned Member
 
Shade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Ottawa, ON
Posts: 7,068
Default

If I was rehoming a dog the first thing I would do was spay/neuter

Just because the home you choose is wonderful doesn't mean they won't make mistakes or the dog ends up somewhere else. Even the possibility of my dog being stolen or used to breed would be enough for me to ensure it's done before they step out my door

As for sporting homes, they are far fewer then pet homes. It would make more sense for a dog to be "marketable" to a broader community would it not? One of the first things a rescue or responsible pet owner will ask is whether the dog is altered
__________________
Shanna

My Pack:

Jasmine - Female Miniature Poodle - born Aug 15, 2010
Loker Delgado Von Stalworth - Male GSD - born Jan 26, 2012
Koda & Zazu - 5 year old male cats
Alex - Male Cocker Spaniel (rescue) - RIP Cuddlebug 2007-2010
Shade is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-14-2013, 02:01 PM   #3 (permalink)
Crowned Member
 
Jax08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NNE PA
Posts: 22,144
Default

I think that happens in any sporting community. Look at the value of a champion gelding to that of a stallion and look at the instances where prize winning race gelded race horses go to slaughter while stallions go to retirement homes.

That priority is a fault in us and how we view living, breathing, animals as things with a "value" other than just the value of life.
__________________


~The strength of one's opinion should not exceed their knowledge on the matter~
Jax08 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-14-2013, 02:05 PM   #4 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 18,686
Default

I had posted my feelings, then realized that the inferences already made in this thread are enough for me to say that whether someone is selling or rehoming a dog and under what terms and for how much is really no one's business unless they are involved with the dog or the situation. Attempting to discuss it on a forum like this will probably not end well!
__________________
Coke (All-American 7/7/06)
Nikon (GSD 9/7/08)
Indy (All-American 5/10/12)
Legend (GSD 10/22/13)
Rainbow Bridge Kenya (GSD)


Last edited by Liesje; 01-14-2013 at 02:09 PM.
Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-14-2013, 02:09 PM   #5 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Yoschi's_Pet_Human's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 344
Default

So, I guess my Yoschi has no value because he's a monorchid and unbreedable? Despite the fact that he has a very strong Schutzhund pedigree.
He's still valuable to me.
LMAO
On the note of "value" I was interviewed at the park by the news the other day. They were asking about the sentimental value of dogs. Apparently a dog was accidentally euthenized a few years ago, and the family is taking it all the way to the Texas Supreme Court trying to sue for sentimental value. Apparently you can sue over the loss of any item that has sentimental value, despite not having any market value but you can't do the same for the loss of a family pet.
__________________
My baby boy: Yoschi vom Herzbach, winner of my heart
Sire: V1-Gildo vom Herzbach SchH3, IPO3, FH, KKL1"a"
Dam: V-Fenja vom Herzbach SchH3, FH, KKL1"a"
Yoschi's_Pet_Human is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-14-2013, 02:12 PM   #6 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
RowdyDogs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 458
Default

I personally have not seen many good working dogs struggling to find homes because they were desexed, although I don't do Schutzhund. I've personally seen several desexed Schutzhund/protection-trained dogs placed in new homes in the last couple of years too, even though I'm only peripherally involved with those circles. It seems to me that a good working dog generally has value beyond their ability to breed. Now, sport dogs are a bit different, and IME again it is hard to make a universal statement about whether reproductive ability matters in their ability to find a new home--it seems to be hard to find a home for them regardless.

Personally, I don't think that people should be criticized for making a responsible choice about whether or not to spay/neuter, regardless of whether one personally agrees. Keeping an intact dog can be a lot more work than some people--even working homes--are comfortable with, and I've even seen provisions in homeowners' insurance and rental agreements banning intact pets. I'm beginning to look for a new dog myself, and reading my homeowners' policy, there is such a provision--we'll have to either see if we can get it removed or switch carriers if I choose to get a dog I want to keep intact, which may not be feasible for everyone.

The only time I'll complain about someone's choice regarding spay/neuter is if they choose to leave their dog intact, and then can't handle it responsibly--either by being unable to handle natural behavioral issues that may crop up, or by letting it have access to other intact dogs and having repeated "accidental" litters. Otherwise, I can't really get too worked up about it. JMO, of course.
__________________
The rowdy dogs:
Hector-2 y/o GSD (mix?) rescue
Scooter-12 y/o ACD/Border Collie mix
Bandit-8 y/o ACD
Wooby-14 y/o ACD
Abutiu "Abi"-ACD puppy and hopeful future SAR dog!
RowdyDogs is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-14-2013, 02:13 PM   #7 (permalink)
Crowned Member
 
martemchik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 4,331
Default

I think that there are too few Schutzhund people that are strictly doing it for the sport. Let's be serious, even if you don't want to be a breeder, you work a dog for years, trial the dog, pump thousands of dollars into the dog, sometimes its nice to know that at the end of the day you might breed said dog and recoup even a little bit of that investment...or get enough money to get another dog, or go to another trial, or just cover some other expense.

The Schutzhund clubs I've visited, do a lot of their own breedings. Breedings that end up going to club members for a price and are generally not advertised. These people aren't breeders, but they prove their dogs to the members around them, who then decide they want a pup from those dogs (its the same advice we give to most people that come on this forum and ask about a dog for Schutzhund).

So a female that is spayed...has no chance of making the person even a little bit of money back. And yes...you can tell me all you want that "its not about the money" but it usually is, and its nice to get a little something back from all that hard work.

By the way...did anyone read that article on Yahoo about the family suing the state of Texas for the sentimental value of their dog? It's gone all the way to the Texas Supreme Court and it will be a huge decision for many people. It would in theory make "mutts" with no breeding potential, more valuable than purebreds with breeding potential/amazing pedigrees. As of now you can collect for damage to property...dog is property, so you can collect how much that dog is worth in the open market (may be a lot depending on pedigree and training). But you can't collect on the sentimental value of the dog. If this lawsuit goes the way of the family...you'd want to devalue your dog so that there is no actual market value to the dog and in that case you can collect on the sentimental value or the "pain and suffering" value of something happening to your dog (possibly even at the vet's office).

Last edited by martemchik; 01-14-2013 at 02:17 PM.
martemchik is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-14-2013, 02:14 PM   #8 (permalink)
Crowned Member
 
Jax08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NNE PA
Posts: 22,144
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
I had posted my feelings, then realized that the inferences already made in this thread are enough for me to say that whether someone is selling or rehoming a dog and under what terms and for how much is really no one's business unless they are involved with the dog or the situation. Attempting to discuss it on a forum like this will probably not end well!
I didn't see any judgements or inferences in this thread. I see the reality of what does happen. In any sport, there are "throw aways", or people that view them as such. That does not mean everyone in the sport views the animals as such but it does happen often enough to cause issues.

I don't think anyone can deny that there are people in dog sports and horse sports that view the animals as nothing but a title and if they can't do that have no value.
__________________


~The strength of one's opinion should not exceed their knowledge on the matter~
Jax08 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-14-2013, 02:21 PM   #9 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
RowdyDogs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 458
Default

edit: ^^^I won't argue with that post, though. There are definitely a great deal of people who see their animals as purely a tool or a means to an end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax08 View Post
I think that happens in any sporting community. Look at the value of a champion gelding to that of a stallion and look at the instances where prize winning race gelded race horses go to slaughter while stallions go to retirement homes.
Actually, I have to disagree with this. You have a few top stallions in any breed who are extremely valuable, but for average stallions, geldings can have far higher value. It can be very difficult to place a stallion for any kind of money unless he is either proven as both a performance horse and a producer, or is from extremely desirable bloodlines (which, with the limited bloodlines in most purebreds, is rare--usually it happens when a particularly famous sire or dam only has a few foals).

With racehorses, most are stallions--males are only generally gelded if they have health concerns (the most famous one recently being Kentucky Derby winner Funny Cide, who was gelded because he was cryptorchid--and now that he is retired from racing, is still owned by the same people and working as a lead pony at the track, last I heard) or if their behavior is so severe that they can't be managed. Ability to reproduce has little to do with whether the horse will end up at the slaughterhouse--it's more to do with the value of the horse's potential offspring, which is based on how the horse performed at the track, along with a lot of luck. Ferdinand is the famous example of a horse who not only had a stellar racing career but also a long career at stud and still wound up at the slaughterhouse.

In general--and I say this as someone who has made a career of selling horses, including both stallions and geldings--it is much easier to sell a gelding than a stallion, and in general they have more value. It's only the very high-quality stallions that are more valuable than their gelding counterparts, and most people don't have the resources or the interest to compete at the highest level of the sport anyway. Even at the top, there's a big market for geldings, because of the intensive time and financial investments that a stallion requires.

Don't get me wrong, I love stallions, but overall I'd be a lot more confident about my ability to get a good home and a good price for a gelding than a stallion.
__________________
The rowdy dogs:
Hector-2 y/o GSD (mix?) rescue
Scooter-12 y/o ACD/Border Collie mix
Bandit-8 y/o ACD
Wooby-14 y/o ACD
Abutiu "Abi"-ACD puppy and hopeful future SAR dog!

Last edited by RowdyDogs; 01-14-2013 at 02:26 PM.
RowdyDogs is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-14-2013, 02:24 PM   #10 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 18,686
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax08 View Post
I didn't see any judgements or inferences in this thread. I see the reality of what does happen. In any sport, there are "throw aways", or people that view them as such. That does not mean everyone in the sport views the animals as such but it does happen often enough to cause issues.
Where are "throw aways" coming from? I doubt that's what Sandra is getting at. Just because a dog is sold does *not* mean it's not a very nice dog, maybe even a top quality a dog. An acquaintance of mine sold a dog recently (dog was almost two, so this is a basically trained dog) and I would be surprised not to see it on the podium someday, but regardless of that the dog is a top dog in any venue of work or performance. A top German Shepherd dog. As far as taking away the value of a dog it seems that just selling a dog implies the dog has no value?

I don't see the reality, I know it, because I have sold a German Shepherd dog to a "sport home" and obtained a German Shepherd dog as an adult coming to me as the "sport home". I've lived both sides of the coin.

I know next to nothing about horses so all the analogies and anecdotes are going over my head.
__________________
Coke (All-American 7/7/06)
Nikon (GSD 9/7/08)
Indy (All-American 5/10/12)
Legend (GSD 10/22/13)
Rainbow Bridge Kenya (GSD)


Last edited by Liesje; 01-14-2013 at 02:28 PM.
Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:56 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.3.2
PetGuide.com
Basset.net DobermanTalk.com GoldenRetrieverForum.com OurBeagleWorld.com
BoxerForums.com DogForums.com GoPitbull.com PoodleForum.com
BulldogBreeds.com FishForums.com HavaneseForum.com SpoiledMaltese.com
CatForum.com GermanShepherds.com Labradoodle-dogs.net YorkieForum.com
Chihuahua-People.com RetrieverBreeds.com