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Taking the value out of a dog

12K views 150 replies 29 participants last post by  blackshep 
#1 ·
There have been a couple of topics about re-homing working dogs lately and that the dogs generally stay within the community because they are of value and I'm not talking about monetary value but genetic value, working value. The dogs are valuable to somebody and that is why people in the world of Schutzhund generally have not a problem to sell their dogs and find them the perfect home within the community.

Is the dog spayed... that value is gone and it drives me crazy to see really nice working dogs, struggling to find a home because they got spayed by the speuter crazy community.
 
#2 ·
If I was rehoming a dog the first thing I would do was spay/neuter

Just because the home you choose is wonderful doesn't mean they won't make mistakes or the dog ends up somewhere else. Even the possibility of my dog being stolen or used to breed would be enough for me to ensure it's done before they step out my door

As for sporting homes, they are far fewer then pet homes. It would make more sense for a dog to be "marketable" to a broader community would it not? One of the first things a rescue or responsible pet owner will ask is whether the dog is altered
 
#3 ·
I think that happens in any sporting community. Look at the value of a champion gelding to that of a stallion and look at the instances where prize winning race gelded race horses go to slaughter while stallions go to retirement homes.

That priority is a fault in us and how we view living, breathing, animals as things with a "value" other than just the value of life.
 
#9 · (Edited)
edit: ^^^I won't argue with that post, though. There are definitely a great deal of people who see their animals as purely a tool or a means to an end.

I think that happens in any sporting community. Look at the value of a champion gelding to that of a stallion and look at the instances where prize winning race gelded race horses go to slaughter while stallions go to retirement homes.
Actually, I have to disagree with this. You have a few top stallions in any breed who are extremely valuable, but for average stallions, geldings can have far higher value. It can be very difficult to place a stallion for any kind of money unless he is either proven as both a performance horse and a producer, or is from extremely desirable bloodlines (which, with the limited bloodlines in most purebreds, is rare--usually it happens when a particularly famous sire or dam only has a few foals).

With racehorses, most are stallions--males are only generally gelded if they have health concerns (the most famous one recently being Kentucky Derby winner Funny Cide, who was gelded because he was cryptorchid--and now that he is retired from racing, is still owned by the same people and working as a lead pony at the track, last I heard) or if their behavior is so severe that they can't be managed. Ability to reproduce has little to do with whether the horse will end up at the slaughterhouse--it's more to do with the value of the horse's potential offspring, which is based on how the horse performed at the track, along with a lot of luck. Ferdinand is the famous example of a horse who not only had a stellar racing career but also a long career at stud and still wound up at the slaughterhouse.

In general--and I say this as someone who has made a career of selling horses, including both stallions and geldings--it is much easier to sell a gelding than a stallion, and in general they have more value. It's only the very high-quality stallions that are more valuable than their gelding counterparts, and most people don't have the resources or the interest to compete at the highest level of the sport anyway. Even at the top, there's a big market for geldings, because of the intensive time and financial investments that a stallion requires.

Don't get me wrong, I love stallions, but overall I'd be a lot more confident about my ability to get a good home and a good price for a gelding than a stallion.
 
#4 · (Edited)
I had posted my feelings, then realized that the inferences already made in this thread are enough for me to say that whether someone is selling or rehoming a dog and under what terms and for how much is really no one's business unless they are involved with the dog or the situation. Attempting to discuss it on a forum like this will probably not end well!
 
#8 ·
I didn't see any judgements or inferences in this thread. I see the reality of what does happen. In any sport, there are "throw aways", or people that view them as such. That does not mean everyone in the sport views the animals as such but it does happen often enough to cause issues.

I don't think anyone can deny that there are people in dog sports and horse sports that view the animals as nothing but a title and if they can't do that have no value.
 
#5 ·
So, I guess my Yoschi has no value because he's a monorchid and unbreedable? Despite the fact that he has a very strong Schutzhund pedigree.
He's still valuable to me.
LMAO
On the note of "value" I was interviewed at the park by the news the other day. They were asking about the sentimental value of dogs. Apparently a dog was accidentally euthenized a few years ago, and the family is taking it all the way to the Texas Supreme Court trying to sue for sentimental value. Apparently you can sue over the loss of any item that has sentimental value, despite not having any market value but you can't do the same for the loss of a family pet.
 
#6 ·
I personally have not seen many good working dogs struggling to find homes because they were desexed, although I don't do Schutzhund. I've personally seen several desexed Schutzhund/protection-trained dogs placed in new homes in the last couple of years too, even though I'm only peripherally involved with those circles. It seems to me that a good working dog generally has value beyond their ability to breed. Now, sport dogs are a bit different, and IME again it is hard to make a universal statement about whether reproductive ability matters in their ability to find a new home--it seems to be hard to find a home for them regardless.

Personally, I don't think that people should be criticized for making a responsible choice about whether or not to spay/neuter, regardless of whether one personally agrees. Keeping an intact dog can be a lot more work than some people--even working homes--are comfortable with, and I've even seen provisions in homeowners' insurance and rental agreements banning intact pets. I'm beginning to look for a new dog myself, and reading my homeowners' policy, there is such a provision--we'll have to either see if we can get it removed or switch carriers if I choose to get a dog I want to keep intact, which may not be feasible for everyone.

The only time I'll complain about someone's choice regarding spay/neuter is if they choose to leave their dog intact, and then can't handle it responsibly--either by being unable to handle natural behavioral issues that may crop up, or by letting it have access to other intact dogs and having repeated "accidental" litters. Otherwise, I can't really get too worked up about it. JMO, of course.
 
#7 · (Edited)
I think that there are too few Schutzhund people that are strictly doing it for the sport. Let's be serious, even if you don't want to be a breeder, you work a dog for years, trial the dog, pump thousands of dollars into the dog, sometimes its nice to know that at the end of the day you might breed said dog and recoup even a little bit of that investment...or get enough money to get another dog, or go to another trial, or just cover some other expense.

The Schutzhund clubs I've visited, do a lot of their own breedings. Breedings that end up going to club members for a price and are generally not advertised. These people aren't breeders, but they prove their dogs to the members around them, who then decide they want a pup from those dogs (its the same advice we give to most people that come on this forum and ask about a dog for Schutzhund).

So a female that is spayed...has no chance of making the person even a little bit of money back. And yes...you can tell me all you want that "its not about the money" but it usually is, and its nice to get a little something back from all that hard work.

By the way...did anyone read that article on Yahoo about the family suing the state of Texas for the sentimental value of their dog? It's gone all the way to the Texas Supreme Court and it will be a huge decision for many people. It would in theory make "mutts" with no breeding potential, more valuable than purebreds with breeding potential/amazing pedigrees. As of now you can collect for damage to property...dog is property, so you can collect how much that dog is worth in the open market (may be a lot depending on pedigree and training). But you can't collect on the sentimental value of the dog. If this lawsuit goes the way of the family...you'd want to devalue your dog so that there is no actual market value to the dog and in that case you can collect on the sentimental value or the "pain and suffering" value of something happening to your dog (possibly even at the vet's office).
 
#11 ·
It seems to me that you might be taking this thread a bit personally and I'm not going to get into an argument because what I'm saying is being twisted. Sandra is referring to the animals losing value because they can not reproduce, along with that are the people that only place value on animals if they are winning.

I clearly stated that not all people in animal sports view animals that way. Nobody, not in any post on this thread, implied that selling a dog means the dog has no value. Not in any sentence at all was that implied.
 
#14 ·
But that's retired dogs. What about a young dog, not even physically mature (not yet breed surveyed)? I guess if I didn't trust the buyer I just wouldn't sell the dog, period. If the dog is young, breeding quality, then it should be up to the buyer (and/or any conditions that still apply from the original contract) whether or not the dog is altered as part of the sale. I wouldn't neuter a really nice dog just in case. That does as much damaged to the already diluted gene pool.
 
#16 ·
Oh I agree mostly but the percentage of truly breed worthy dogs is as slim as proper working homes. If every GSD was kept intact "just in case" we'd end up with a lot more oops litters and bad breedings which would be just as damaging to the gene pool would it not?
 
#15 · (Edited)
I don't have a problem with placing financial value on an animal (clearly, since as I said I do it routinely as part of my job), but I would agree with Jax's statement. I don't think a family mutt has less inherent value than a GSD with impeccable bloodlines and a Schutzhund title. That doesn't mean the GSD's owner is wrong to place a price on the value of their dog, but the mutt is still worth something beyond money, you know? It's two very different ways of assessing value.

I don't know if this is how Jax meant it, but I interpreted that statement to just mean that every animal deserves a good life, regardless of its price tag. The financial value of a dog is something that's kind of made up anyway--look at pit bulls bred for fighting, for example (I can think of many more in the horse industry--the entire US Arabian industry is a cautionary tale about this--but I'm trying to stay away from the horse analogies ;)).

As far as desexing a dog before rehoming it, I have a hard time criticizing people for that too. Back when I first got my GSD and was trying to rehome him (I found him as a stray and didn't want another dog at the time, but he grew on me after a couple of months ;)), I interviewed several people who seemed great at first but who I eventually discovered intended to breed him--despite the fact that, being a stray, he has no papers, and that GSD experts even disagree on whether he's actually even purebred! But he looks purebred for the most part (in person, most GSD people think he is, but his photographs incite more disagreement), and they didn't care. Some of these people were even involved in dog sports and like I said, seemed like perfect homes.

Now, Hector clearly wasn't a proven working or sporting dog at that point, but the experience would make me very leery about rehoming an intact animal unless I knew the person they were going to very well. I suspect some of it has to do with the amount of contacts the individual has in the dog world too...I personally didn't have any and still have relatively few, so it's harder for me to reliably vet potential homes. A more experienced and involved owner (someone who is actively involved with sporting, working or breed organizations, I mean) and knows a lot of people might feel a lot more confident rehoming an intact dog.

edit: I do agree with your above post, Liesje. I guess my whole point is that it is very situational and I don't really think anyone should be judged too harshly for their decision about this kind of thing, as long as they're being as responsible as they can. Like I said previously, the only time I really judge is when someone leaves a dog intact and doesn't manage it responsibly, or if they knowingly sold a dog to a puppy mill, something like that. :)
 
#18 ·
I'm not sure I really understand the intent of this thread...saying that it is tough to place a sport dog that is spayed in a home where they may want to breed is a pretty obvious satement isn't it?

As far as finding a sport home for a competition quality (sterilized) dog, one may have more luck with the flyball/agility community. I find that they would care a lot less about that, I know several people that have taken dogs (with the intent for high level agility/flyball competition) and the dogs had been spayed or neutered already. I'm not trying to bash one sport community vs the other, it just seems WAY more common to have spayed or neutered dogs competing in these venues.
 
#19 ·
Flyball too. Someone on my team will never stop commenting on my dog's nads, it's kind of gross/annoying, lol. I'm guessing it's far more opportunistic to have a flyball or agility dog altered (especially spayed) because we are usually competing at least once a month, even those of us who just do it recreationally and not for serious competition, whereas even those who have decades of SchH experience and have titled many dogs might only trial a few times a year. Some performance events will not even allow females in heat, whereas in SchH they will do quite a bit to accommodate them.
 
#20 ·
Lol, I get stuck calling all the agility dogs girls because they are all missing their nads! In schutzhund ALL of the boys were intact, at agility I would say maybe 10% are intact. As far as I know you can't compete in agility with a female in heat. That could really suck if your "top dog" came into season during regionals or nationals...


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#21 ·
Flyball, agility, nosework, herding trials, treiball...done all of those or gone with friends who competed in them to events, and IME the majority of dogs in all those sports with the possible exception of of herding trials are desexed. In the herding trials I've been to, it seems to be closer to 50/50 since a lot of working breeders use them to prove their breeding stock's ability.

The Schutzhund people I know tend to have a bit more of a prejudice against desexed dogs, and especially neutered males as there seems to be a common belief (at least among the people I know) that neutering removes a bit of the drive or intensity the dog might otherwise have. I'm not commenting on the veracity of that (I haven't found it to be true in the sports I do, but they're also very different from protection-type work), but it's definitely a belief I've seen.

I think Schutzhund also tends to have more purebred dogs in it, and more limited breeds participating. I know my local club has a few mutts and non-typical breeds, but for the most part it is GSDs, Mals, etc. even though it's open to anyone. I think that affects the overall attitude towards desexed dogs, as a mutt is a lot more likely to be neutered than a quality purebred. I also think that, because of the bite work which requires a much higher level of dedication to training and brings with it potential liability or "dangerous dog" issues, a higher percentage of Schutzhund handlers are the type who are willing to deal with the hassles of intact dogs, as opposed to other sports which attract a lot of those people as well, but also attract more casual owners who are just looking for something fun to do with their dogs.

Of course, that's a huge generalization and just based on my own experience, so feel free to call me out. ;)
 
#22 ·
Plus Schutzhund is a *breed* test, so it's probably more likely that there are dogs being trialed as a possible breeding assessment than using agility, flyball, etc as a breeding assessment for a GSD. Many breeders use the SV system here which means SchH title, since HGH is impossible unless you live on the east coast or send your dog off for training.
 
#23 · (Edited)
You can trust a new owner with your dog, intact or not, or you would not sell them the dog.

But, circumstances change. In 12 months time that new owner might have lost his job, or had a crippling accident, or even died. It may not be up to him to say where the dogs should go. Yes, yes we should all have a will that clearly states what should happen to each of our critters, but things change, sometimes the person who had agreed to take a dog is now in no position to do so.

Working lines are not immune to people who are going to use a dog foully in their quest to make money. If someone's requirement in taking a dog is that it is and remains intact, then they most likely want to breed the dog. That in and of itself isn't the end of the world, so long as you can carefully pick the people who take the dog. But, if its someone's heir that now needs to get rid of the dogs, and the only thing that person knows about the dogs is that they were bred, or were going to be used for breeding, they may look for whoever will give them a decent amount to take the dog.

And then the dog can fall into the hands of people who will sell the puppies of a dog with accomplishments and a working line pedigree. By this site alone, I think we can agree that the working lines are popular. That means people will snatch up these dogs and some of the people doing the snatching will be people who should not own a living creature.

By altering your dog before rehoming it, the only value you remove is reproduction. This means that the foulest of owners will not EVER agree to own your dog. Those owners who have breeding as a part of the plan they have for the dogs that they prize highest, to pass on the genes, will also pass on the dog.

I think you can look at in with that four square way: + + ; + - ; - + ; - -.

++ If you keep the dog intact and it gets the best possible situation, is worked with and eventually responsibly bred and passes on its excellent genes to its progeny.


+ - If you alter the dog, and it gets into the best possible situation, is worked and cared for properly, turns out to be awesome, but it can never produce itself and pass on its genes.

- + If you alter the dog, and it gets into a negative situation, the chances are that the worst kind of owners will not want the dog as it is already altered, and the possibilities for neglect and abuse of the dog is limited to that dog alone.

- - If you do not alter the dog, and it gets into the worst possible situation, it is kept by someone with dozens of dogs, in small pens, pumping out puppies.

Then you have to look at the likelihood of the dog being passed into other hands. Is the certainty of your dog not having the + + situation worth the risk of the dog landing in the - - situation. That is just a question that the original owner has to come to terms with.

 
#24 ·
Well, the only reason I was able to get my dog at all was because she had to have an emergency spay due to pyometra. If not for that she never would have been looking for a home, she would have been kept for breeding as she was planned for. So I guess I'm pretty glad that it worked out that way.
 
#25 ·
There have been a couple of topics about re-homing working dogs lately and that the dogs generally stay within the community because they are of value and I'm not talking about monetary value but genetic value, working value. The dogs are valuable to somebody and that is why people in the world of Schutzhund generally have not a problem to sell their dogs and find them the perfect home within the community.

Is the dog spayed... that value is gone and it drives me crazy to see really nice working dogs, struggling to find a home because they got spayed by the speuter crazy community.
Looking at the world through rose colored glasses, this is my thought on this type of scenario.

If the 'current community' rejects a good working dog because it has been spayed, why wouldn't said dog be offered (for what monetary value agreed on) to a newbie? Someone who has expressed interest? Someone known through the 'community' but hasn't gotten their feet wet yet? Someone who'd be thrilled to have a dog who has already gone through training and couldn't care less if the dog was intact or not. A dog that (with professional training) could help the newbie become a 'community member'.
 
#26 ·
It could be...but newbies without dogs are few and far in between. I'm not in Schutzhund, but I am part of a GSD club where we train for various venues. I didn't join this club until after I had my puppy, most people don't join these types of things before they have their first puppy. I know now that although I did end up with a solid dog, it would've been smarter to join this club (probably not though since they don't breed the type of dog I want now that I'm "in the know"), or it would've been good to go to a Schutzhund club and learn a bit there. Only problem is that most people aren't going to spend 5 hours every Sunday for a few months hanging out at a Schutzhund club so that they can get an idea of the kind of dog they want. So even if I was a newbie at a club...I would already have a dog and probably not be looking to adopt another one. Then...once I would learn the sport and understand what it takes, I'd still look towards a puppy from one of the lines rather than a full grown dog.
 
#27 ·
But here we often tell people who don't know what kind of dog that they want, or where to find a nice pup close to them, to go and at least visit the nearest Schutzhund club, GSDC club, or sport club. That way they get a chance to meet many dogs from different backgrounds. How nice would it be for them to be offered a started dog to learn on? Don't we continually tell newbies not to count on their first dog being a breeding dog? that it is a teaching dog?

Many breeders already have as many dogs as they can comforatbly care for, plus or minus a puppy here and there. Here in the US space can be a premium.
 
#32 ·
Mess? They allow intact dogs, just not ones in standing heat. She practices with us otherwise. Or maybe it's a team rule because we use our own mats, not sure I've never had an intact female.
 
#33 ·
I didn't read the whole thread -but for me a dog doesn't loose its valued because its been spayed or nuetered what ever working ability the dog has is still there-no they can't be bred-but I have rescued a dog and would never breed her-if I bought an adult dog -maybe-and if I was re-homing my dog the most important thing to me would be that they were in a home that they were loved and cared for-I would return her to the breeder-it wouldn't involve money in any way-thats just my opinion
 
#34 ·
I know I am going to "walk around" the situation a bit but hope that those who know will understand my post a bit better and maybe get the point I am trying to make and help others make it clear... lol.

In regards to my own experience and my own dog.... a situation occurred where I had to spay my bitch who was being sought after by a few respected people in the sport/GSD world.

I had several people meet her, watch her on and off the field and who inquired about her lines and were keeping tabs on her.

I had one VERY respected person in the SchH community want to buy her from my breeder. I always laugh because this person was a showline person and although extremely knowledgeable in the GSD "world" and very good with genetics and such, he was not a fan of the working lines, so when he met my crazy dog and really grew fond of her (for the purpose of breeding) I had to laugh.

A situation occurred where I had the choice to either give Zefra back to my breeder or spay her, and so I spayed her. A selfish decision maybe, but I couldn't part with her - especially after what transpired elsewhere.

When I spoke to a few people who had showed interested in Zefra (they were pushing me to train and title her - but work got in the way) they were quite upset with me that I spayed her. Once person said, "what a loss" in regards to her not being able to be bred.

A few of them had asked if I was getting another dog to work - like her value had all of a sudden disappeared because she was now spayed. A few made comments like, "why would you continue to work her? what's the point?".

To me, working my dog, showing what this dog/bloodline/etc. can do - even if my dog can't reproduce is still important, so I continue to work with her and will title her this coming year.

I would like to learn about breeding (not really breed a female myself) so this to me was the perfect set-up, but the dog (Zefra) had value to ME.

I know that when Zefra was intact, I had a few serious inquiries into her (wanting to purchase her) from people in the community, one was for work and the other for sport but once she was spayed both those inquires disappeared... not that I would ever sell her, but people went from seeing her as a valued working dog to just a pet.
 
#35 · (Edited)
Thank you, Elisabeth. I believe your story was exactly the point of the OP.

Here is what I don't understand. When showing horses, the geldings still have high monetary value if they are winning. Not as much as a champion stallion but they are out there proving the lines they came from. Maybe because there is so much money involved in general? I don't know enough about that part, just that the values remain high for winners. Now, why is it that in the dog world, the same is not true? The value is placed on the reproductive abilities.
 
#36 ·
I don't think anyone can deny that there are people in dog sports and horse sports that view the animals as nothing but a title and if they can't do that have no value.
See. As a dog owner, yes, a "pet owner", I'd never sell my dog to someone who saw it only as $$.
And if it washes out somehow, it's worthless.
Perhaps if you yourself see dogs as $$ and worthless if altered, then you feel that way too, but I'll never see my dogs that way.

I've made a point of adopting dogs who might "work" (hunting dogs, for instance) to people who merely want a pet, for fear if they failed at their intended duty (sometimes though the owner's fault, not the dog's) they'd boot the dog out the door.
Dogs are more than equipment, they are more than reproductive tracts.
 
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