Taking the value out of a dog

[selzer]

Good lines produce good dogs. Maybe not every dog, but on the whole, good dogs. But great dogs, they are rare and a lot of people feel they should be bred. They will probably produce good dogs, but they might produce a great dog. I can understand how someone who is following a dog because they like that dog, or who is very familiar with whatever dog-sport might be totally disappointed when they hear that a dog has been altered.

I think from a breeding perspective, we want to produce great dogs and it doesn't really matter what lines we are talking about. We are matching up the best of the best to the best dog for her in hopes of creating some very exceptional pups. When your think is going to take 1-2 years to determine whether this dog is everything you hope for, there is just no way you can keep every hopeful. So you place them in homes that you feel confident will do everything to give that pup its best shot at reaching its potential.

I really don't think that continuing to trial after a dog is altered proves the lines. It does, but since littermates are not identical, breeding a littermate of a truly awesome dog doesn't give you the same chances of reproducing the animal that was altered. In fact it can't, and neither can breeding the truly awesome dog, but that is the dog that we would want to breed.

I am guessing that people will sometimes sell these dogs with a pick of litter if ever the dog is bred clause built in.

[Jag]

What about dogs that are sold on limited registration or a spay/neuter clause? I'm curious to know how many dogs that have done 'great things' in the world of SchH are altered. Are altered dogs kept from going 'as far as they can' in the sport? Being that the great majority of dogs that compete in sport must have *some* issue which may not make them the best of the best for breeding... is this really something to worry about? Protecting your dog (that you're re-homing) from procreation abuse isn't 'ruining' anything, IMO. Of course, if you know someone personally within those circles who'd be willing to be responsible with the dog, that may alleviate some fears. Of course, there's no saying that the dog wouldn't be passed along to someone with a different mindset. I do like the idea of these dogs being used for beginners in the sport world. Especially after the thread about a BYB dog not being everything the person wanted. Instead of getting another young pup, why not have a small amount of dogs in the club that could be handed over to those who are just starting out?

[Mrs.K]

Originally Posted by Liesje

Also, in GSDs, at the very top (I'm talking top WUSV, BSP, BSZS...) the value is in the prestige. For example, some VA dogs have been sold for exorbitant prices, like a quarter of a million dollars. Now, I could take a bitch and breed to the top VA dogs in Germany for less than $1500. These dogs' value is not in stud fees or breeding, it just doesn't work that way in GSDs. Stud fees are CHEAP (some even free!) and the SV does limit how often the dogs can register breedings. Same thing for a top working line dog. The owner would *never* recoup in stud fees what they have put into the dog, training, traveling and competing at that level. Often when the top show lines are sold it's to wealthy people that simply think it's cool to blow two hundred grand on a dog to keep as a companion.

Not only that. The value lies in being able to sell the dog.

China and America pays top-dollars and insane amounts of money for dogs like that but once the dog is spayed, that value is gone. You won't make money out of the stud fee's BUT there is something people forget. It's your line, your kennel that becomes valuable.

If your famous dog, produces on top of that, your kennel will become well known and famous and that is where the true value lies.


All those kennels you are talking about today, started out like that. If you can manage to send your dogs to the regional and nationals on a constant basis and all of them have one thing in common which is your champion dog, that's how you create the legends from tomorrow. And that is the true value of the dog.

Everyone wants a champion, but if your champion produces champions on top, that's the Jackpot!

My father always says "In ten years people won't remember the handler or helper but they always remember the dog!"

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by Jag

What about dogs that are sold on limited registration or a spay/neuter clause? I'm curious to know how many dogs that have done 'great things' in the world of SchH are altered. Are altered dogs kept from going 'as far as they can' in the sport? Being that the great majority of dogs that compete in sport must have *some* issue which may not make them the best of the best for breeding... is this really something to worry about? Protecting your dog (that you're re-homing) from procreation abuse isn't 'ruining' anything, IMO. Of course, if you know someone personally within those circles who'd be willing to be responsible with the dog, that may alleviate some fears. Of course, there's no saying that the dog wouldn't be passed along to someone with a different mindset. I do like the idea of these dogs being used for beginners in the sport world. Especially after the thread about a BYB dog not being everything the person wanted. Instead of getting another young pup, why not have a small amount of dogs in the club that could be handed over to those who are just starting out?

Honestly, I think the whole argument about breeding and value as a breeding dog is kind of a red herring here. Most of the dogs being sold are young, so what it boils down to is that in the SchH community, you are far more likely to find folks who believe in waiting until an animal is mature to alter it than early spay/neuter. That goes for wash outs, pets, dogs that are for club level competition and not breeding, or national champions. Most people in this community are not going to do elective surgeries and alter their dogs just in case. Green dogs and started dogs being sold under age 3 are likely to be intact simply because of their age and not being able to determine whether they are breeding quality and there being no reason to spay/neuter them. If someone is a beginner and has no interest in breeding or breed survey-ing the dog they can certainly go ahead and spay/neuter their new dog.

[msvette2u]

I'm not saying flyball or agility is any less...I do obedience, rally, and agility now, but Schutzhund is so much cooler (mostly due to the protection) so by the end of it, you do want to have the chance to breed. Especially if the dog turns out to be really really good.

Have you met flyball people??
Those are some, um, interesting people. Where we eschew backyard breeding, they advocate mixing breeds such as border collies with pit bulls (oops, Am Staffs) to create "the ultimate flyball dog". That's just one of the breeds they tinker with.
Maybe Sch people do it too, heck, maybe all sports do...but I still feel it's not responsible to do it.
A few yrs. go we adopted a dog we only later found out was used for Sch, he was a GSD x Dutch. Very unstable dog, not necessarily result of mixing the breeds but the guy was a nutjob The dogs he used had sketchy and unstable temperaments.
So yeah, I guess there's that.

[Liesje]

Why do you take the WORST examples of people/dogs and use them to label "SchH people" or "flyball people"? Do you actually DO Schutzhund? Because it sounds like you don't so I'll tell you something....there are a lot of people breeding really crappy dogs and doing those mixes (like Dutch/GSD, Mal/GSD, etc) and say they "do SchH" and are in this club or that club and they really aren't. In fact, most of them get tossed out of good clubs because they are weird people that breed at random and get really crappy results. The first club I started had two couples like this, they came a few times, their dogs were frighteningly weak nerved (one dog actually defecated on itself during an evaluation), and just like that they are telling people they are in our club and titling their dogs in Schutzhund. Um, no that's not how it works. Both these couples were not allowed to join despite what they might advertise on their websites. "Used for SchH" and actually an active member of a club belonging to a SchH organization are not the same thing.

[msvette2u]

If you're speaking to me, it was a general consensus (in flyball) that inter-breed breeding was fine, that is, the end justified the means. Yes I got the impression they were, overall, like that.
As for the "sch" guy who bred that dog, he was, or had, started his own club

[martemchik]

Originally Posted by Liesje

Why do you take the WORST examples of people/dogs and use them to label "SchH people" or "flyball people"? Do you actually DO Schutzhund? Because it sounds like you don't so I'll tell you something....there are a lot of people breeding really crappy dogs and doing those mixes (like Dutch/GSD, Mal/GSD, etc) and say they "do SchH" and are in this club or that club and they really aren't. In fact, most of them get tossed out of good clubs because they are weird people that breed at random and get really crappy results. The first club I started had two couples like this, they came a few times, their dogs were frighteningly weak nerved (one dog actually defecated on itself during an evaluation), and just like that they are telling people they are in our club and titling their dogs in Schutzhund. Um, no that's not how it works. Both these couples were not allowed to join despite what they might advertise on their websites. "Used for SchH" and actually an active member of a club belonging to a SchH organization are not the same thing.

I actually wasn't thinking about those people at all...most of the SchH people I've met care a lot about ONE breed (usually GSD). I know there are some that mix, but I was referring to the crowd that does use it as a "breed test." I feel like most of the people doing something that time restrictive really fall in love with their dog and if it is of breeding quality they will try to breed it. And I've met the ones that are definitely responsible about it and only do it when their dog is proven. Those are the ones I'm talking about.

As for the fly-ball people...I've met a few that think their dogs are the greatest things since sliced bread and that no other sport out there compares to fly-ball. I've never met anyone that actually breeds for it, but I can see how people would. Not really sure what the "best breed" for fly ball is (like Borders have become for agility), but I'm sure there are people out there mixing those dogs in order to get the ultimate competitor. I personally don't even get the appeal of the sport so I won't discuss how I feel about it, but I understand that any time you invest countless hours into a dog, the dog succeeds, its just human nature to want to produce more like it.

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by msvette2u

As for the "sch" guy who bred that dog, he was, or had, started his own club

And he's breeding crosses and adopting them out to people? I wonder how well that's going for him....

It's like people that say they have a "police dog". If I had a dime for every one of those I'd be rich! And we'd have more supposed "police dogs" than regular GSDs! Like I said earlier, the SchH community is relatively small, but just because someone says they are part of it does not mean that they can actually produce scorebooks for their dogs... I know someone who started his own club and has never titled a dog in SchH, not even a BH, and is breeding and selling "Schutzhund" dogs.

[msvette2u]

Oh he went to prison for raping his (male) employee. We never found out about any of it until a few months after we adopted that dog, or we'd never have done it. Full disclosure was not made
That is, the reason for rescue stepping in for the dogs was the dude was in prison. We only found out when we scanned him and learned who purchased the chip.