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Old 01-15-2013, 08:02 AM   #31 (permalink)
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She has to miss a few practices for flyball because I don't think the training facility allows it.
Stuff like that makes me so mad. Why wouldn't they allow an intact dog at the training facility? What's the point? Seriously...
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:23 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Mess? They allow intact dogs, just not ones in standing heat. She practices with us otherwise. Or maybe it's a team rule because we use our own mats, not sure I've never had an intact female.
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:43 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I didn't read the whole thread -but for me a dog doesn't loose its valued because its been spayed or nuetered what ever working ability the dog has is still there-no they can't be bred-but I have rescued a dog and would never breed her-if I bought an adult dog -maybe-and if I was re-homing my dog the most important thing to me would be that they were in a home that they were loved and cared for-I would return her to the breeder-it wouldn't involve money in any way-thats just my opinion
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:17 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I know I am going to "walk around" the situation a bit but hope that those who know will understand my post a bit better and maybe get the point I am trying to make and help others make it clear... lol.

In regards to my own experience and my own dog.... a situation occurred where I had to spay my bitch who was being sought after by a few respected people in the sport/GSD world.

I had several people meet her, watch her on and off the field and who inquired about her lines and were keeping tabs on her.

I had one VERY respected person in the SchH community want to buy her from my breeder. I always laugh because this person was a showline person and although extremely knowledgeable in the GSD "world" and very good with genetics and such, he was not a fan of the working lines, so when he met my crazy dog and really grew fond of her (for the purpose of breeding) I had to laugh.

A situation occurred where I had the choice to either give Zefra back to my breeder or spay her, and so I spayed her. A selfish decision maybe, but I couldn't part with her - especially after what transpired elsewhere.

When I spoke to a few people who had showed interested in Zefra (they were pushing me to train and title her - but work got in the way) they were quite upset with me that I spayed her. Once person said, "what a loss" in regards to her not being able to be bred.

A few of them had asked if I was getting another dog to work - like her value had all of a sudden disappeared because she was now spayed. A few made comments like, "why would you continue to work her? what's the point?".

To me, working my dog, showing what this dog/bloodline/etc. can do - even if my dog can't reproduce is still important, so I continue to work with her and will title her this coming year.

I would like to learn about breeding (not really breed a female myself) so this to me was the perfect set-up, but the dog (Zefra) had value to ME.

I know that when Zefra was intact, I had a few serious inquiries into her (wanting to purchase her) from people in the community, one was for work and the other for sport but once she was spayed both those inquires disappeared... not that I would ever sell her, but people went from seeing her as a valued working dog to just a pet.
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:22 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Thank you, Elisabeth. I believe your story was exactly the point of the OP.

Here is what I don't understand. When showing horses, the geldings still have high monetary value if they are winning. Not as much as a champion stallion but they are out there proving the lines they came from. Maybe because there is so much money involved in general? I don't know enough about that part, just that the values remain high for winners. Now, why is it that in the dog world, the same is not true? The value is placed on the reproductive abilities.
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:27 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I don't think anyone can deny that there are people in dog sports and horse sports that view the animals as nothing but a title and if they can't do that have no value.
See. As a dog owner, yes, a "pet owner", I'd never sell my dog to someone who saw it only as $$.
And if it washes out somehow, it's worthless.
Perhaps if you yourself see dogs as $$ and worthless if altered, then you feel that way too, but I'll never see my dogs that way.

I've made a point of adopting dogs who might "work" (hunting dogs, for instance) to people who merely want a pet, for fear if they failed at their intended duty (sometimes though the owner's fault, not the dog's) they'd boot the dog out the door.
Dogs are more than equipment, they are more than reproductive tracts.
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:30 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jax08 View Post
Thank you, Elisabeth. I believe your story was exactly the point of the OP.

Here is what I don't understand. When showing horses, the geldings still have high monetary value if they are winning. Not as much as a champion stallion but they are out there proving the lines they came from. Maybe because there is so much money involved in general? I don't know enough about that part, just that the values remain high for winners. Now, why is it that in the dog world, the same is not true? The value is placed on the reproductive abilities.
Maybe because on the shorter life span? Not as sought after by the general community/world?
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:34 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Maybe, Elisabeth. I think there might be a lot of money involved in the wins also. More prestige? And it doesn't take much to tank the value of a horse either, regardless of sex or reproductive capabilities.
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:41 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jax08 View Post
Thank you, Elisabeth. I believe your story was exactly the point of the OP.

Here is what I don't understand. When showing horses, the geldings still have high monetary value if they are winning. Not as much as a champion stallion but they are out there proving the lines they came from. Maybe because there is so much money involved in general? I don't know enough about that part, just that the values remain high for winners. Now, why is it that in the dog world, the same is not true? The value is placed on the reproductive abilities.
No, the same IS true. A BSP winner owned and trained by one of the most sought after SchH trainers/competitors has never been bred (he's monorchid or cryptorchid). I think the same is true of one of our national podium dogs. At the very top, the value is placed on winning (and is that any better or worse?...) Same reason you see VA dogs with all sorts of issues. The value is not in reproduction but winning, winning, winning.

But for many people in Schutzhund, it being a *breed* test, the dogs are kept intact until their breedworthiness is determined.
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:46 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Also, in GSDs, at the very top (I'm talking top WUSV, BSP, BSZS...) the value is in the prestige. For example, some VA dogs have been sold for exorbitant prices, like a quarter of a million dollars. Now, I could take a bitch and breed to the top VA dogs in Germany for less than $1500. These dogs' value is not in stud fees or breeding, it just doesn't work that way in GSDs. Stud fees are CHEAP (some even free!) and the SV does limit how often the dogs can register breedings. Same thing for a top working line dog. The owner would *never* recoup in stud fees what they have put into the dog, training, traveling and competing at that level. Often when the top show lines are sold it's to wealthy people that simply think it's cool to blow two hundred grand on a dog to keep as a companion.
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