Taking the value out of a dog

[RowdyDogs]

Flyball, agility, nosework, herding trials, treiball...done all of those or gone with friends who competed in them to events, and IME the majority of dogs in all those sports with the possible exception of of herding trials are desexed. In the herding trials I've been to, it seems to be closer to 50/50 since a lot of working breeders use them to prove their breeding stock's ability.

The Schutzhund people I know tend to have a bit more of a prejudice against desexed dogs, and especially neutered males as there seems to be a common belief (at least among the people I know) that neutering removes a bit of the drive or intensity the dog might otherwise have. I'm not commenting on the veracity of that (I haven't found it to be true in the sports I do, but they're also very different from protection-type work), but it's definitely a belief I've seen.

I think Schutzhund also tends to have more purebred dogs in it, and more limited breeds participating. I know my local club has a few mutts and non-typical breeds, but for the most part it is GSDs, Mals, etc. even though it's open to anyone. I think that affects the overall attitude towards desexed dogs, as a mutt is a lot more likely to be neutered than a quality purebred. I also think that, because of the bite work which requires a much higher level of dedication to training and brings with it potential liability or "dangerous dog" issues, a higher percentage of Schutzhund handlers are the type who are willing to deal with the hassles of intact dogs, as opposed to other sports which attract a lot of those people as well, but also attract more casual owners who are just looking for something fun to do with their dogs.

Of course, that's a huge generalization and just based on my own experience, so feel free to call me out.

[Liesje]

Plus Schutzhund is a *breed* test, so it's probably more likely that there are dogs being trialed as a possible breeding assessment than using agility, flyball, etc as a breeding assessment for a GSD. Many breeders use the SV system here which means SchH title, since HGH is impossible unless you live on the east coast or send your dog off for training.

[selzer]

You can trust a new owner with your dog, intact or not, or you would not sell them the dog.

But, circumstances change. In 12 months time that new owner might have lost his job, or had a crippling accident, or even died. It may not be up to him to say where the dogs should go. Yes, yes we should all have a will that clearly states what should happen to each of our critters, but things change, sometimes the person who had agreed to take a dog is now in no position to do so.

Working lines are not immune to people who are going to use a dog foully in their quest to make money. If someone's requirement in taking a dog is that it is and remains intact, then they most likely want to breed the dog. That in and of itself isn't the end of the world, so long as you can carefully pick the people who take the dog. But, if its someone's heir that now needs to get rid of the dogs, and the only thing that person knows about the dogs is that they were bred, or were going to be used for breeding, they may look for whoever will give them a decent amount to take the dog.

And then the dog can fall into the hands of people who will sell the puppies of a dog with accomplishments and a working line pedigree. By this site alone, I think we can agree that the working lines are popular. That means people will snatch up these dogs and some of the people doing the snatching will be people who should not own a living creature.

By altering your dog before rehoming it, the only value you remove is reproduction. This means that the foulest of owners will not EVER agree to own your dog. Those owners who have breeding as a part of the plan they have for the dogs that they prize highest, to pass on the genes, will also pass on the dog.

I think you can look at in with that four square way: + + ; + - ; - + ; - -.

++ If you keep the dog intact and it gets the best possible situation, is worked with and eventually responsibly bred and passes on its excellent genes to its progeny.


+ - If you alter the dog, and it gets into the best possible situation, is worked and cared for properly, turns out to be awesome, but it can never produce itself and pass on its genes.

- + If you alter the dog, and it gets into a negative situation, the chances are that the worst kind of owners will not want the dog as it is already altered, and the possibilities for neglect and abuse of the dog is limited to that dog alone.

- - If you do not alter the dog, and it gets into the worst possible situation, it is kept by someone with dozens of dogs, in small pens, pumping out puppies.

Then you have to look at the likelihood of the dog being passed into other hands. Is the certainty of your dog not having the + + situation worth the risk of the dog landing in the - - situation. That is just a question that the original owner has to come to terms with.

[Chicagocanine]

Well, the only reason I was able to get my dog at all was because she had to have an emergency spay due to pyometra. If not for that she never would have been looking for a home, she would have been kept for breeding as she was planned for. So I guess I'm pretty glad that it worked out that way.

[Lilie]

Originally Posted by Mrs.K

There have been a couple of topics about re-homing working dogs lately and that the dogs generally stay within the community because they are of value and I'm not talking about monetary value but genetic value, working value. The dogs are valuable to somebody and that is why people in the world of Schutzhund generally have not a problem to sell their dogs and find them the perfect home within the community.

Is the dog spayed... that value is gone and it drives me crazy to see really nice working dogs, struggling to find a home because they got spayed by the speuter crazy community.

Looking at the world through rose colored glasses, this is my thought on this type of scenario.

If the 'current community' rejects a good working dog because it has been spayed, why wouldn't said dog be offered (for what monetary value agreed on) to a newbie? Someone who has expressed interest? Someone known through the 'community' but hasn't gotten their feet wet yet? Someone who'd be thrilled to have a dog who has already gone through training and couldn't care less if the dog was intact or not. A dog that (with professional training) could help the newbie become a 'community member'.

[martemchik]

Originally Posted by Lilie

Looking at the world through rose colored glasses, this is my thought on this type of scenario.

If the 'current community' rejects a good working dog because it has been spayed, why wouldn't said dog be offered (for what monetary value agreed on) to a newbie? Someone who has expressed interest? Someone known through the 'community' but hasn't gotten their feet wet yet? Someone who'd be thrilled to have a dog who has already gone through training and couldn't care less if the dog was intact or not. A dog that (with professional training) could help the newbie become a 'community member'.

It could be...but newbies without dogs are few and far in between. I'm not in Schutzhund, but I am part of a GSD club where we train for various venues. I didn't join this club until after I had my puppy, most people don't join these types of things before they have their first puppy. I know now that although I did end up with a solid dog, it would've been smarter to join this club (probably not though since they don't breed the type of dog I want now that I'm "in the know"), or it would've been good to go to a Schutzhund club and learn a bit there. Only problem is that most people aren't going to spend 5 hours every Sunday for a few months hanging out at a Schutzhund club so that they can get an idea of the kind of dog they want. So even if I was a newbie at a club...I would already have a dog and probably not be looking to adopt another one. Then...once I would learn the sport and understand what it takes, I'd still look towards a puppy from one of the lines rather than a full grown dog.

[Andaka]

But here we often tell people who don't know what kind of dog that they want, or where to find a nice pup close to them, to go and at least visit the nearest Schutzhund club, GSDC club, or sport club. That way they get a chance to meet many dogs from different backgrounds. How nice would it be for them to be offered a started dog to learn on? Don't we continually tell newbies not to count on their first dog being a breeding dog? that it is a teaching dog?

Many breeders already have as many dogs as they can comforatbly care for, plus or minus a puppy here and there. Here in the US space can be a premium.

[RowdyDogs]

Originally Posted by martemchik

It could be...but newbies without dogs are few and far in between. I'm not in Schutzhund, but I am part of a GSD club where we train for various venues. I didn't join this club until after I had my puppy, most people don't join these types of things before they have their first puppy. I know now that although I did end up with a solid dog, it would've been smarter to join this club (probably not though since they don't breed the type of dog I want now that I'm "in the know"), or it would've been good to go to a Schutzhund club and learn a bit there. Only problem is that most people aren't going to spend 5 hours every Sunday for a few months hanging out at a Schutzhund club so that they can get an idea of the kind of dog they want. So even if I was a newbie at a club...I would already have a dog and probably not be looking to adopt another one. Then...once I would learn the sport and understand what it takes, I'd still look towards a puppy from one of the lines rather than a full grown dog.

I like Lilie's sentiment, but I have to agree with this for most serious sports, and would add that most people who are really into them enjoy bringing along a dog themselves, so there isn't a huge market for a pre-trained dog. I know every dog sport/work I've gotten into, it's because I had a dog with too much energy or drive to let sit around and so I had to find something else to do with them. I wound up loving some of it, could take or leave other stuff, but it all happened because I already had a dog, and I find that is true for most people. However, it isn't true for all people, and I have met people who do fit Lilie's description.

I will say, though, that I did see two older, non-breeding Schutzhund dogs (not sure if they were spayed/neutered, but I know they weren't considered breeding candidates for whatever reason, both purebred GSDs) placed into new homes in the last year. They were sold to relative newbies who weren't into dog sports for their own sake, but were looking for a dog to make them feel more comfortable in their own homes and were willing to do a reasonable amount of training to maintain the dog's skills. I wouldn't call those people "Schutzhund people" but from what I've heard, it's working out well. So that's a potential other avenue for non-breeding dogs, although admittedly it is a limited one and one that would require a lot of caution to make sure they're really prepared for taking on a working dog.

[Mrs.K]

Originally Posted by Liesje

This is what I don't get. Why is it wrong/faulty to assess the value of an animal? Why spay/neuter something you aren't going to own, just because?

That is what I don't get either.

Flyball, agility, nosework, herding trials, treiball...done all of those or gone with friends who competed in them to events, and IME the majority of dogs in all those sports with the possible exception of of herding trials are desexed. In the herding trials I've been to, it seems to be closer to 50/50 since a lot of working breeders use them to prove their breeding stock's ability.

Exactly, these are recreational sports but once you cross over to Schutzhund it's a complete different ball game.

Flyball too. Someone on my team will never stop commenting on my dog's nads, it's kind of gross/annoying, lol. I'm guessing it's far more opportunistic to have a flyball or agility dog altered (especially spayed) because we are usually competing at least once a month, even those of us who just do it recreationally and not for serious competition, whereas even those who have decades of SchH experience and have titled many dogs might only trial a few times a year. Some performance events will not even allow females in heat, whereas in SchH they will do quite a bit to accommodate them.

I think there is a different culture in SchH than in any other sport, except for Herding, maybe.

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by Mrs.K

I think there is a different culture in SchH than in any other sport, except for Herding, maybe.

Yeah I have a flyball team mate who does herding trials (with a smooth coated BC) and her dog is intact. She has to miss a few practices for flyball because I don't think the training facility allows it. Funny, the first time we put her on a practice team without her, he ran down the lane and when he passed her he stopped cold, sniffed, gave her a lick on the muzzle, and kept going down the lane. I think he was very pleased to finally have an intact "girlfriend"!