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Taking the value out of a dog

12K views 150 replies 29 participants last post by  blackshep 
#1 ·
There have been a couple of topics about re-homing working dogs lately and that the dogs generally stay within the community because they are of value and I'm not talking about monetary value but genetic value, working value. The dogs are valuable to somebody and that is why people in the world of Schutzhund generally have not a problem to sell their dogs and find them the perfect home within the community.

Is the dog spayed... that value is gone and it drives me crazy to see really nice working dogs, struggling to find a home because they got spayed by the speuter crazy community.
 
#40 ·
Also, in GSDs, at the very top (I'm talking top WUSV, BSP, BSZS...) the value is in the prestige. For example, some VA dogs have been sold for exorbitant prices, like a quarter of a million dollars. Now, I could take a bitch and breed to the top VA dogs in Germany for less than $1500. These dogs' value is not in stud fees or breeding, it just doesn't work that way in GSDs. Stud fees are CHEAP (some even free!) and the SV does limit how often the dogs can register breedings. Same thing for a top working line dog. The owner would *never* recoup in stud fees what they have put into the dog, training, traveling and competing at that level. Often when the top show lines are sold it's to wealthy people that simply think it's cool to blow two hundred grand on a dog to keep as a companion.
 
#63 ·
Not only that. The value lies in being able to sell the dog.

China and America pays top-dollars and insane amounts of money for dogs like that but once the dog is spayed, that value is gone. You won't make money out of the stud fee's BUT there is something people forget. It's your line, your kennel that becomes valuable.

If your famous dog, produces on top of that, your kennel will become well known and famous and that is where the true value lies.


All those kennels you are talking about today, started out like that. If you can manage to send your dogs to the regional and nationals on a constant basis and all of them have one thing in common which is your champion dog, that's how you create the legends from tomorrow. And that is the true value of the dog.

Everyone wants a champion, but if your champion produces champions on top, that's the Jackpot!

My father always says "In ten years people won't remember the handler or helper but they always remember the dog!"
 
#41 ·
But Lies - being a bit of a an annoying fly today sorry.. lol - do you really think the majority of people training in schH see it as a breed test anymore?

I mean, yes, obviously there are still people who do (I believe it is, but I also see the value in working your non-breeding dog in the venue) but I personally see more who don't necessarily see it as a breed test and more of a sporting event to enjoy with their dogs... at least around here.
 
#42 ·
Yes, and I think your post illustrates that. A lot of people see it only as a means to an end...dogs must be titled and surveyed for breeding so that is why they are doing it. Maybe not the majority of people participating, but the type of people that will seek out dogs to buy in the sport community and make offers. I've done the same, I've seen some nice dogs that would really fit into a breeding program and had I decided to go in that direction I would have made similar offers.
 
#46 ·
To me it depends on the purpose and intent of the dog when I purchased or adopted the dog. I have pets and I have dogs for show/sport. The pets are altered, mixes, rescues etc. The dogs for sport/show need to be intact (possibility of breeding) and need to be able to perform (able to do the "job" they were obtained for) - this is why I got them in the first place. If a sport/show dog washes out for some reason, I will have to rehome the dog to a pet family. I cannot keep every dog - simply not feasible from a space/time/money standpoint. Unfortunately if you do it right and put the dog through the ringer when doing show/sport, many dogs will wash out. Hip/elbows don't work out, allergies, temperament not right for sport, conformation ends up not working out etc. It's just how it goes many times.

These dogs DO need a good loving home and a place where they are cherished. This is NOT a negative or a heartless thing to do. *MOST* honorable breeders will do this. Those that don't work out for the breeding/show/sport program will be rehomed to families that consider them the center of their lives and treat the dog like royalty. The person doing breeding/show/sport CANNOT keep every dog and it is a DISSERVICE to keep every dog because one CANNOT support/care for each dog like it deserves when one has many dogs.

I think it is far more selfish to obsessively hoard and keep every dog because one cannot bear to part with those that don't work out. I've seen kennels with 30+ dogs with only a few actively being worked/bred and one or two people managing the work load. Dogs don't get personal attention, they are left unworked, many times in kennels or pens for the majority of their time, and have little one on one time. They don't get to go in houses, they don't get to have a family, they don't get holiday treats, and they don't get fun outings. They just sit around day in and out in kennels/pens. Yes, they are fed and watered, pens are cleaned, and they are provided adequate care, but they exist only - these dogs are not the light of anyone's life. This is NOT an optimal life. If a dog is not actively worked/showed by a competitor or breeder, it should be rehomed to where it can be loved and cherished.

Personally, I am not looking for any more pets. I have 4 "pets" at the moment and I'm at my absolute limit for pets. I'll probably be swayed into taking another sad case...but that's another story! :p I am actively looking for nice dogs for sport/show/breed candidates at all times. If the dog is desexed, I stop looking because that dog doesn't suit MY purposes, but could be a great dog for someone else. This is not to say the dog has no value, but its value is NO longer as high as it possibly could have been - that's just the practical nature of it.

Don't make value judgements on others based on your own mindset - it does a disservice to all involved. We all apprach dogs in different ways. Some for pets, some for work, some for show, some for breeding. To get irate over the fact that others don't view all dogs like you do is amusing to me...we all care and love our dogs, but we have different purposes for dogs. As long as in the end, the dog is happy and in a place where it can be celebrated for its merits is the best situation we can hope for. For some dogs, their job is to be excellent family pets. For others, it is to be breed worthy candidates that can work, show, do service, produce the next generation etc. Just because each dog has a different purpose does not mean one dog is better than another - they are suited for different purposes and we must be realistic about this fact.
 
#48 ·
Don't make value judgements on others based on your own mindset - it does a disservice to all involved. We all apprach dogs in different ways.
Exactly. I mean, I wouldn't sell Nikon for ten million dollars, but I'm sure there are people who would look at him and go "ew a black and red dog" and not be *paid* to own him. The SchH community is small and tight. If someone is screwing other people over and/or mistreating dogs, word gets out (I'm sure many of you can insert a certain name here).
 
#47 ·
I am not a "cult follower" or any of the sort - but if I had the lifestyle where I could purchase an older "washed out" dog to learn with, to use for trialing, etc. and to gain some much needed experience and know-how, I probably would do it.

I was actually looking at older dogs who were already titled in the venues I like to work my dogs. I had planned to trial with these dogs to gain some experience and then take my own dogs with whom I trained myself and title them after.

My dogs ( aka. Stark) would not do well with a adult dog coming into the house. He is great with pups and other dogs but tends to show avoidance (stress) to me if I bring an older mature dog into the house now (one he doesn't know well). So, puppies it is for me even though I would prefer an older dog at this point in my life.
 
#49 ·
Exactly. The dog world is too small for word to not get around. We all know the knuckleheads that use the cattle prod for corrections or leave dogs in filthy conditions. The people I train with LOVE their dogs. It's the cutest thing in the world when a big, bad decoy is on the ground snuggling with his dog. We love our dogs. We do NOT view them as being disposable or "means to an end". We love love LOVE our dogs - spend countless hours, effort, money, time on them. We all know the morons and we know the ones that do it right. Unfortunately bad things happen and will continue to happen, but don't peg all of us into that unfair stereotype. I am fiercely protective over my dogs and aggressively make sure EACH gets the best possible chance in life. The majority love their dogs and do what is best for the dogs.

Say for example you have a dog that as it matures grows to hate the sport or work, is it fair to keep the dog around just because? Nah, it's FAR kinder to home the dog where it is cherished and loved to the max. It always breaks my heart when I give a dog away - gave away my sweet Rottie girl a week ago and I never thought I could do that. But now when her family sends me pictures of her watching over the kids or snoozing on the bed with dad - that is MORE than worth it. When both man and dog win out in the end, what more could you ask for?
 
#50 ·
Where in this thread, anywhere, did anyone make judgements? The OP made a general statement. I made a general statement based on what I've seen in sports involving animals. Nobody here made any judgements. I know I certainly do not feel that animals are only worth something based on titles or reproductive abilities. I have 3 spayed female dogs, 1 neutered male cat and a gelding. The only one with any breeding worth mentioning is the gelding who I paid $500 and will never leave my house because he's been through enough. Good breeding doesn't equal good treatment. I'm sure the breeders would be appalled at the condition he was in.

I think to much is being read into the original post and some things are being taken rather personally.
 
#51 ·
I'm probably confusing this thread with the other ones when I made my reply, but rest assured, I honestly don't care enough to take anything said here personally :)

I am simply offering my input and reasoning - I am speaking globally on the view that this forum holds on rehoming. I don't look at usernames half the time so I don't know who to point you to, but you can agree that there is a general sentiment about subjects such as washing out, rehoming as pets and value of desexed animals. I am speaking to that - again, don't care to take it personally. Just exchanging thoughts is all!
 
#54 ·
^ Very true, I spend more time on flyball training. Though when I'm actually scheduled to trial for SchH then I'm working my butt off for 2-3 weeks before a trial (yeah I'm that kind of person!).
 
#56 ·
True, but I do agree with her that doing flyball or agility even at a novice level requires much more time and a more deliberately conditioned dog than doing club level SchH, even with my show line dog that hasn't been super easy to title in SchH. For flyball we compete once a month and that's just as people who have fun (we aren't real competitive and don't host tournaments) but I haven't done a SchH title (not counting BH and ADs) in a year.
 
#78 ·
True, but I do agree with her that doing flyball or agility even at a novice level requires much more time and a more deliberately conditioned dog than doing club level SchH, even with my show line dog that hasn't been super easy to title in SchH. For flyball we compete once a month and that's just as people who have fun (we aren't real competitive and don't host tournaments) but I haven't done a SchH title (not counting BH and ADs) in a year.
BTW add me to "confused".
I'm not sure if MrsK is angry because her dogs are spayed, or if spaying completely devalues the dogs, if her dogs aren't spayed, if she got more $$ (or could have) had they been intact, or just is against s/n in general :shrug:
 
#57 ·
Well, I don't know about Agility or Flyball. All I know is that SchH is time consuming as it is with three disciplines and I'm not going to engage into "My sport takes more commitment than yours."

If you want to do it right, you do it right and it will take time and money, period and just because 600 dollars of club fee is nothing for you (you in general) doesn't mean it can't hurt me.

Not everyone earns the kind of money that will let you comfortably live out your hobby and people need to know what they get themselves into before they commit to a sport.
 
#58 ·
The people that I have met that do Schutzhund tend to breed a bit more than some others. I do think it has a lot to do with the "breed test" portion of it all. There are some, but I believe they are the minority, that just do the sport for fun. The majority of others either have plans on breeding or if they don't yet, once the dog develops into something worth breeding they would like the opportunity to do so. Many people do like to pass on the genes of a successful dog and also at the same time have a puppy that is a lot like what they just trained before. Others of course will try something new.

My view on the novice handlers (I consider myself a novice AKC obedience person) is that we have pets first, and sport dogs second. Many of us still want to deal with puppies, want to train from the beginning, and especially if this is our first dog to do a sport with, you won't convince me that its better to learn with a trained dog. I want to do the training myself, I don't want it to be done for me, I want to feel that I accomplished something. So that's why I believe "novice" homes are so far an between.

So this is why I believe it makes such a large difference in Schutzhund when you're talking about washed out dogs. At the end of the day...people like to have the possibility, however slim, of breeding a good dog.
 
#60 ·
You know...maybe it has to do with that huge commitment. Think about it, you put in hours and hours of work into getting your dog some pretty serious training. I'm not saying flyball or agility is any less...I do obedience, rally, and agility now, but Schutzhund is so much cooler (mostly due to the protection) so by the end of it, you do want to have the chance to breed. Especially if the dog turns out to be really really good.
 
#61 ·
Good lines produce good dogs. Maybe not every dog, but on the whole, good dogs. But great dogs, they are rare and a lot of people feel they should be bred. They will probably produce good dogs, but they might produce a great dog. I can understand how someone who is following a dog because they like that dog, or who is very familiar with whatever dog-sport might be totally disappointed when they hear that a dog has been altered.

I think from a breeding perspective, we want to produce great dogs and it doesn't really matter what lines we are talking about. We are matching up the best of the best to the best dog for her in hopes of creating some very exceptional pups. When your think is going to take 1-2 years to determine whether this dog is everything you hope for, there is just no way you can keep every hopeful. So you place them in homes that you feel confident will do everything to give that pup its best shot at reaching its potential.

I really don't think that continuing to trial after a dog is altered proves the lines. It does, but since littermates are not identical, breeding a littermate of a truly awesome dog doesn't give you the same chances of reproducing the animal that was altered. In fact it can't, and neither can breeding the truly awesome dog, but that is the dog that we would want to breed.

I am guessing that people will sometimes sell these dogs with a pick of litter if ever the dog is bred clause built in.
 
#62 ·
What about dogs that are sold on limited registration or a spay/neuter clause? I'm curious to know how many dogs that have done 'great things' in the world of SchH are altered. Are altered dogs kept from going 'as far as they can' in the sport? Being that the great majority of dogs that compete in sport must have *some* issue which may not make them the best of the best for breeding... is this really something to worry about? Protecting your dog (that you're re-homing) from procreation abuse isn't 'ruining' anything, IMO. Of course, if you know someone personally within those circles who'd be willing to be responsible with the dog, that may alleviate some fears. Of course, there's no saying that the dog wouldn't be passed along to someone with a different mindset. I do like the idea of these dogs being used for beginners in the sport world. Especially after the thread about a BYB dog not being everything the person wanted. Instead of getting another young pup, why not have a small amount of dogs in the club that could be handed over to those who are just starting out?
 
#64 ·
Honestly, I think the whole argument about breeding and value as a breeding dog is kind of a red herring here. Most of the dogs being sold are young, so what it boils down to is that in the SchH community, you are far more likely to find folks who believe in waiting until an animal is mature to alter it than early spay/neuter. That goes for wash outs, pets, dogs that are for club level competition and not breeding, or national champions. Most people in this community are not going to do elective surgeries and alter their dogs just in case. Green dogs and started dogs being sold under age 3 are likely to be intact simply because of their age and not being able to determine whether they are breeding quality and there being no reason to spay/neuter them. If someone is a beginner and has no interest in breeding or breed survey-ing the dog they can certainly go ahead and spay/neuter their new dog.
 
#65 ·
I'm not saying flyball or agility is any less...I do obedience, rally, and agility now, but Schutzhund is so much cooler (mostly due to the protection) so by the end of it, you do want to have the chance to breed. Especially if the dog turns out to be really really good.
Have you met flyball people??
Those are some, um, interesting people. Where we eschew backyard breeding, they advocate mixing breeds such as border collies with pit bulls (oops, Am Staffs) to create "the ultimate flyball dog". That's just one of the breeds they tinker with.
Maybe Sch people do it too, heck, maybe all sports do...but I still feel it's not responsible to do it.
A few yrs. go we adopted a dog we only later found out was used for Sch, he was a GSD x Dutch. Very unstable dog, not necessarily result of mixing the breeds but the guy was a nutjob :( The dogs he used had sketchy and unstable temperaments.
So yeah, I guess there's that.
 
#66 ·
Why do you take the WORST examples of people/dogs and use them to label "SchH people" or "flyball people"? Do you actually DO Schutzhund? Because it sounds like you don't so I'll tell you something....there are a lot of people breeding really crappy dogs and doing those mixes (like Dutch/GSD, Mal/GSD, etc) and say they "do SchH" and are in this club or that club and they really aren't. In fact, most of them get tossed out of good clubs because they are weird people that breed at random and get really crappy results. The first club I started had two couples like this, they came a few times, their dogs were frighteningly weak nerved (one dog actually defecated on itself during an evaluation), and just like that they are telling people they are in our club and titling their dogs in Schutzhund. Um, no that's not how it works. Both these couples were not allowed to join despite what they might advertise on their websites. "Used for SchH" and actually an active member of a club belonging to a SchH organization are not the same thing.
 
#68 ·
I actually wasn't thinking about those people at all...most of the SchH people I've met care a lot about ONE breed (usually GSD). I know there are some that mix, but I was referring to the crowd that does use it as a "breed test." I feel like most of the people doing something that time restrictive really fall in love with their dog and if it is of breeding quality they will try to breed it. And I've met the ones that are definitely responsible about it and only do it when their dog is proven. Those are the ones I'm talking about.

As for the fly-ball people...I've met a few that think their dogs are the greatest things since sliced bread and that no other sport out there compares to fly-ball. I've never met anyone that actually breeds for it, but I can see how people would. Not really sure what the "best breed" for fly ball is (like Borders have become for agility), but I'm sure there are people out there mixing those dogs in order to get the ultimate competitor. I personally don't even get the appeal of the sport so I won't discuss how I feel about it, but I understand that any time you invest countless hours into a dog, the dog succeeds, its just human nature to want to produce more like it.
 
#67 ·
If you're speaking to me, it was a general consensus (in flyball) that inter-breed breeding was fine, that is, the end justified the means. Yes I got the impression they were, overall, like that.
As for the "sch" guy who bred that dog, he was, or had, started his own club :shrug:
 
#69 · (Edited)
As for the "sch" guy who bred that dog, he was, or had, started his own club :shrug:
And he's breeding crosses and adopting them out to people? I wonder how well that's going for him....

It's like people that say they have a "police dog". If I had a dime for every one of those I'd be rich! And we'd have more supposed "police dogs" than regular GSDs! Like I said earlier, the SchH community is relatively small, but just because someone says they are part of it does not mean that they can actually produce scorebooks for their dogs... I know someone who started his own club and has never titled a dog in SchH, not even a BH, and is breeding and selling "Schutzhund" dogs.
 
#70 ·
Oh he went to prison for raping his (male) employee. We never found out about any of it until a few months after we adopted that dog, or we'd never have done it. Full disclosure was not made :(
That is, the reason for rescue stepping in for the dogs was the dude was in prison. We only found out when we scanned him and learned who purchased the chip.
 
#71 ·
Yeah, so, likely NOT someone that's really on the up-and-up as far as Schutzhund goes. Like martemchik said SchH people are really into their breed. No one breeds mixes FOR SchH. Some people do it with a mix but that's different. It's mostly GSDs, since it's a GSD breed test. Some Mali people think they can do better and sometimes they do :p
 
#73 · (Edited)
Well my point was, I knew flyball people did, but I don't know of incidents other than the breeder of that dog, he was attempting to "create" a new breed. It does seem that folks who do that would use the excuse "all purebreds were mixed at some point".

Did anyone see me use THAT as an example?? No, only when Lies asked, and if you re-read my ORIGINAL post on that you'd see I said "heck, Sch people may do it", but I didn't say "this is the be -all and end-all of Sch people/trainers". Sheesh. Some of you can't wait to take offense at anything I say! :rolleyes:

My *very* simple statement on Sch was "heck maybe Sch people do it too", because flyball people seem to have no issue with it.
 
#76 ·
I'm sorry, I'm so lost.... what does flyball have to do with Sandra's post? I don't think she ever did flyball, and there is already a thread on what you are trying to bring up (which has nothing to do with the point here).

SchH is a breed assessment for GSDs, so no GSDs should not be mixed with other breeds in order to create some sort of SchH super-breed because GSDs are *already* the SchH super-breed.
 
#74 ·
Those are some, um, interesting people. Where we eschew backyard breeding, they advocate mixing breeds such as border collies with pit bulls (oops, Am Staffs) to create "the ultimate flyball dog". That's just one of the breeds they tinker with.
Maybe Sch people do it too, heck, maybe all sports do ...but I still feel it's not responsible to do it.
A few yrs. go we adopted a dog we only later found out was used for Sch, he was a GSD x Dutch. Very unstable dog, not necessarily result of mixing the breeds but the guy was a nutjob The dogs he used had sketchy and unstable temperaments.
And I gave but one example!
Now I'm not that stupid to think everyone does idiotic things like that, but perhaps some on the fringe think it's okay or preferable to try to create "the ultimate" dog.

Like...a shortcut to working with one breed to create excellence.
 
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