Taking the value out of a dog

[LeoRose]

Originally Posted by Freestep

Personally, and I'm speaking as a non-breeder, it's a bonus to me if the dog has already been spayed/neutered. Since I don't intend to breed and I don't care to deal with an intact dog (for several reasons), at least I don't have to pay for that surgery if it's already been done. So the value to me is actually greater.

If I were a breeder or competitor, I might feel differently. The times that I've had to re-home a dog, I've been willing to go either way depending on the dog in question and the new owner. Rescues are automatically spayed/neutered. If the dog is a breedworthy purebred, I'd leave it up to the new owner, if I trusted their judgement.

I feel the same way about any dog I get. I already enough have complications in my life (as in autistic kids), and don't need the added complication of an intact dog. If I get a dog that is unaltered, I will be altering it.

Originally, I was going to rehome Leo, seeing as how I already had two dogs, one of which I was competing in obedience and rally with. I needed a third dog like I needed a hole in my head. However, the only people who inquired about her lost interest when they found out she was going to be spayed before she left me. Could it have been due to the loss of her potential as a puppy machine? Maybe. I don't know for sure, seeing as how they never got back to me.

Anyway, I'm keeping her, and she is going to be spayed for two reasons. One, I don't want to deal with an intact bitch, and all the headaches that go along with heat cycles. Two, in order to get her PAL, she needs to be spayed. And seeing as how she is going to "replace"* my current competition dog, she needs a PAL.

*My current dog is retiring from the AKC obedience ring after this weekend, and while I will be doing different things with her, her main "value" is, and always has been, as my pet.

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by Freestep

Personally, and I'm speaking as a non-breeder, it's a bonus to me if the dog has already been spayed/neutered. Since I don't intend to breed and I don't care to deal with an intact dog (for several reasons), at least I don't have to pay for that surgery if it's already been done. So the value to me is actually greater.

But would you not buy a dog that you really liked if the only thing you didn't like was that it was still intact?

I feel the opposite, if I'm selling or rehoming a dog, I'm not going to alter it. That comes with its own risks and is not cheap. If the new owner wants to, I will not stop them, not even recommend against it, but that's their decision, their risk, their money.

[martemchik]

Originally Posted by blackshep

Ok, but then if we are using Schutzhund people as an example, they are probably not very likely to S/N, right? So it's kind of a moot point anyway, in that case.

No I think what OP brought up was that for some reason to be "responsible" the Schutzhund people make the decision to rehome, and get the dog altered, not realizing that they've just decreased their chances to find this dog a Schutzhund home.

So say a high level competitor has a dog, it doesn't work out, he wants to rehome, he alters the dog. Now...this would be a great dog for a mid-level competitor, but the mid-level competitor now doesn't want the dog, only because its altered.

I think the problem is that although an altered dog would find a pet home much quicker, its harder for these dogs to find those homes. And I know people have done it, but that doesn't make the exception the rule. So an altered dog would be more likely to find a home in an agility household...problem is, Schutzhund people don't talk to agility people, so their best bet is to look for another Schutzhund home.

Just a note on that comment...my GSD club holds an agility trial every year. 300 runs a day that will be increased to 600 runs a day this year. We were booked solid...and there were 3 GSDs there. Now, I've started training in agility so I'll be there next year, and we have a few other green dogs that will be ready to go by August, but in general the agility crowd isn't looking for GSDs.

[LeoRose]

Originally Posted by Liesje

But would you not buy a dog that you really liked if the only thing you didn't like was that it was still intact?

I feel the opposite, if I'm selling or rehoming a dog, I'm not going to alter it. That comes with its own risks and is not cheap. If the new owner wants to, I will not stop them, not even recommend against it, but that's their decision, their risk, their money.

Personally, if the dog was intact, and I would be required to keep the dog intact (breeding contract, for example), then I would not get the dog. However, If I could alter the dog, and it had everything I wanted, except for being altered, I'd get it. THe dog being already altered would be a bonus, though.

[blackshep]

Originally Posted by martemchik

No I think what OP brought up was that for some reason to be "responsible" the Schutzhund people make the decision to rehome, and get the dog altered, not realizing that they've just decreased their chances to find this dog a Schutzhund home.

So say a high level competitor has a dog, it doesn't work out, he wants to rehome, he alters the dog. Now...this would be a great dog for a mid-level competitor, but the mid-level competitor now doesn't want the dog, only because its altered.

I think the problem is that although an altered dog would find a pet home much quicker, its harder for these dogs to find those homes. And I know people have done it, but that doesn't make the exception the rule. So an altered dog would be more likely to find a home in an agility household...problem is, Schutzhund people don't talk to agility people, so their best bet is to look for another Schutzhund home.

Just a note on that comment...my GSD club holds an agility trial every year. 300 runs a day that will be increased to 600 runs a day this year. We were booked solid...and there were 3 GSDs there. Now, I've started training in agility so I'll be there next year, and we have a few other green dogs that will be ready to go by August, but in general the agility crowd isn't looking for GSDs.

My experience with schutzhund people (and I'm not trying to paint all with the same brush) is that generally speaking, they don't alter them. Period.

So I don't see that as being a problem, because I think even if they look to rehome them, they would likely not alter them.

And even if they did, using your example -. Why would the mid-level competitor have a problem taking an altered dog that didn't cut it at the higher level? In my opinion, this dog should not be bred anyway.

[martemchik]

Originally Posted by blackshep

And even if they did, using your example -. Why would the mid-level competitor have a problem taking an altered dog that didn't cut it at the higher level? In my opinion, this dog should not be bred anyway.

Why not? So unless a dog is going to the world championships it shouldn't be bred? If a dog gets its SchH3 and gets breed surveyed and whatever else is involved in SV style I don't get why you wouldn't breed it. I know that according to some people they think only 3 dogs and 3 bitches a year should be used for breeding so that we only pass on the best traits of the breed, but that's not reality.

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by martemchik

Why not? So unless a dog is going to the world championships it shouldn't be bred? If a dog gets its SchH3 and gets breed surveyed and whatever else is involved in SV style I don't get why you wouldn't breed it. I know that according to some people they think only 3 dogs and 3 bitches a year should be used for breeding so that we only pass on the best traits of the breed, but that's not reality.

Plus I'd take some BH or SchH1 dogs over many of the SchH3 dogs I've met, in a heartbeat!

[blackshep]

Originally Posted by martemchik

Why not? So unless a dog is going to the world championships it shouldn't be bred? If a dog gets its SchH3 and gets breed surveyed and whatever else is involved in SV style I don't get why you wouldn't breed it. I know that according to some people they think only 3 dogs and 3 bitches a year should be used for breeding so that we only pass on the best traits of the breed, but that's not reality.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying!

Now to be clear I don't consider a dog who's got Sch3 and breed surveyed to be a mid-level dog. Maybe not world champion, but not mid-level IMO.

That's how it is with horses. Let's use Hanoverian's as an example - they have to pass 30 day/70 day tests, inspected as 2 YO's, 3YO's, 4YO's. It's a very rigorous process and that is why only the best of the best are able to breed. The goal is to improve the breed, not sustain it at it's current level.

Why would you breed a mediocre dog?

Maybe it's my horse experience that dictates much of how I feel about breeding animals. But I don't see any benefit to breeding mid-level anything.

[martemchik]

Maybe you're confused as to what I was referring to. I'm not talking about the animal as the competitor, I'm talking about the human. So a person that wants to title through SchH3 but isn't going to go on to nationals or worlds. Someone that might go to a regional competition, but due to finances or just ambition just isn't going to make it out to the bigger competitions.

These are the types of dogs that ARE being bred in the United States today. There are very few breeders that do national events. Due to time/money/other commitments its crazy to expect only those people that are winning Siegers and World SchH Championships to be breeding their dogs. First, there wouldn't be enough supply for the common man, and second, we'd shrink our genetic diversity even more.

I can't compare horses to dogs. Dogs are an every man pet/animal. Dogs are attainable by many more people than horses. Horses also have higher price tags and their genetic traits are much more valuable. They breed less...there are less of them...its just a much smaller and better regulated market. So as much as I know people love to compare horses to dogs, they are not even close to the same type of mentality.

[blackshep]

Originally Posted by martemchik

Maybe you're confused as to what I was referring to. I'm not talking about the animal as the competitor, I'm talking about the human. So a person that wants to title through SchH3 but isn't going to go on to nationals or worlds. Someone that might go to a regional competition, but due to finances or just ambition just isn't going to make it out to the bigger competitions.

These are the types of dogs that ARE being bred in the United States today. There are very few breeders that do national events. Due to time/money/other commitments its crazy to expect only those people that are winning Siegers and World SchH Championships to be breeding their dogs. First, there wouldn't be enough supply for the common man, and second, we'd shrink our genetic diversity even more.

I can't compare horses to dogs. Dogs are an every man pet/animal. Dogs are attainable by many more people than horses. Horses also have higher price tags and their genetic traits are much more valuable. They breed less...there are less of them...its just a much smaller and better regulated market. So as much as I know people love to compare horses to dogs, they are not even close to the same type of mentality.

Ok, well we're talking apples to oranges, dogs vs. handlers. I thought you meant a dog that couldn't handle the higher levels, should be bred.

You're wrong about the horse industry though, there's a huge number of horses breeding, BYB's and it's not always so highly regulated, depending on the breed. But that's why so many horses end up at the knackers, and for dogs, at the pound.

I just think with breeding any animal, that you should only breeding the best. I do think it should be more limited in what is allowed to breed, that is NOT a bad thing. It doesn't mean it's cut back so much that you lose the genetic diversity, I mean horses aren't all inbred. But it does mean the breed is improving all the time.

That's how I personally think all breeding should be done. There should be a goal and a purpose. Weaknesses should be looked at and bred to improve upon them.

Just my two cents, for what they're worth. About $0.02