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Old 01-18-2013, 08:40 AM   #121 (permalink)
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I believe the 'value of a dog' is subjective and I don't think it has anything to do with spaying/neutering.

If you're a breeder or want to participate in conformation shows/breeds surveys, etc., then yes, you'll want a dog intact.
(You can do many sports without having the dog intact.)

If I wanted a highly trained SchH or PPD dog, already trained, I wouldn't care whether it's been spayed/neutered.
A trained dog is a trained dog.

Puppies can be a crapshoot...even from working or titled parents.
'Green dogs' are up-and-coming, partially trained, for whatever purpose you're looking for.
With that dog, you'll see it's potential, temperament and possibly structure, better than with a new pup.

Depending on WHY you want a dog and WHAT you plan to do do with the dog, might determine its 'value', for some people.

I've had both, intact and 'speutered' (!?) dogs. I do sports with some and have had others as 'pets'.
Heat cycles in females don't bother me if kept intact.

For me, the spay/neuter thing never been an issue, nor does it determine the dogs 'value', in my eyes.

I love all of my dogs and consider them all valuable.

JMO. Kat

Last edited by KatsMuse; 01-18-2013 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:12 AM   #122 (permalink)
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Is it possible that some people see the value of their dog as being more than if whether or not they can generate $$$ from their uterus?

I can't believe how opinionated some people are about what good, caring owners are doing to their own dogs. I do not judge other people's decisions on how they care for their animals, as long as they are receiving good care. Leave them intact, or don't, I don't care, it's not my dog or my business. There are TONS of good breeding dogs out there, mine doesn't have to be one of them.

There are a lot more pet owners than people who truly work their dogs. There are some health benefits (particularly for females) to having the animal spayed or neutered.

I'm a pet owner who's interested in working my dog. I have NO interest in breeding. EVER. I don't care how well bred my dog may or may not be, I don't care how well she does in sport. I'm never going to breed her. There are many quality dogs out there who are bred by knowledgeable people who should be breeding. I'm a novice and I have absolutely no business breeding. My dog comes from good bloodlines, does that mean I need to keep her intact and breed her? She will never be for sale.

I had her spayed because it made the most sense to me. It virtually eliminated the chance of her getting mammary cancer, her personality remains completely unchanged, and frankly, on my flyball team they were complaining about two different intact females who shut down for weeks surrounding their heats, which makes them unreliable members of the flyball team and they have a tournament coming up this weekend that they had to pull them (two of their best dogs) from because they won't run.

All of our pets growing up have been spayed or neutered and they all lived happy, healthy long lives.

So I could see that a professional handler would want their dogs intact, because they are more likely to want to breed them. But I don't think it takes away from their performance if they are altered, actually I think it can help keep them more focused on the job at hand.

I'm a horse person, and trying to ride mares who are in season can be an awful experience, and stallions require a very experienced handler and your facilities need to be set up properly to accommodate a stallion. Geldings are a far more popular choice for riders, because they don't get distracted by raging hormones, are more even tempered, why would the same not be true for dogs?

If you're a pro who has an interest in breeding then, yes, an intact dog would be better for you. But I would not say an altered dog is less valuable. Less valuable to who? A breeder? There are more people out there not breeding than those who are.

There's a lady in our schutzhund group who was also a schutzhund judge. Her female is spayed and she just came in 3rd at the championships last year, the dog was sold shortly afterward. So obviously someone saw her value.

Not everyone wants to breed, and for those people, an altered dog can be a better choice for them. I find schutzhund people to be very forceful in their opinions and ideas. While I really, truly admire the sport and the amount of work and dedication from the handlers, I wish they'd mind their own business when it comes to the management of other peoples animals, unless it's a case of cruelty or neglect.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:06 AM   #123 (permalink)
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This discussion was NOT about me selling my dog! This discussion is about spaying a dog and taking it's value with that! However, quite a few posts hit the "If I EVER was in a situation like that..." nerve describing exactly what happened to me and pinching me with as many needles as possible!

Sorry, but unless you ARE in that kind of situation you don't know what you are going to do.

Re-homing is Re-homing but spaying "just because..." that I will never understand. Yeah, I do have a different mindset on that. But I have a different mindset on guns too. I come from a different culture and I cannot comprehend the American way of thinking on that. To me it is an invasion into the dog and unless there is something wrong with the dog, I wouldn't do it.

Also, it's taking the responsibility away from people. They should be held responsible much more than they are but in the US everything seems to be about convenience. So is spaying. "Here, let's spay this dog, so you don't have to worry about heat and opps litters."
Not really what I meant.....Not everyone is going to agree with you on the the value of a dog having the ability to reproduce or whether or not they can be sold.....for many people the value has more to do with how well the dog competes, how well the dog works (SAR, police k9 etc) and for most people a dog's value comes from companionship.

I have rehomed a dog.....and I have thought long and hard about rehoming one of my current dogs. I have strong opinions about when *I* believe it's approprite for ME to get rid of a dog and when its not. I am entitled to my opinion just as you are. Part of the reason this is driving me so crazy is because I am staring at the fact that a young dog that I own and have put a TON of work into may not be able to compete in my sport. But I sought him out and bought him as a puppy and now I feel that he is MY dog, I am attached to him and he is VERY attached to me.... so he will stay. If you need to rehome your dog that's fine, I suggested looking into other sports where the value lies in whether or not the dog can compete, not whether or not the dog can reproduce.

(I have to admit I can get a bad attitude towards this stuff because I have known some people who were overly callous towards their sporting dogs. I am not saying that is you, I am just saying that it exists and it makes me sad.)
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:17 AM   #124 (permalink)
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Also, it's taking the responsibility away from people. They should be held responsible much more than they are but in the US everything seems to be about convenience. So is spaying. "Here, let's spay this dog, so you don't have to worry about heat and opps litters."
Whatever the reason, it exists so why are you railing against it so?? This is a different country, different culture, what is wrong with that?? Nothing. Nothing at all.
There's a number of health issues that spaying can prevent - so what is the big "assault" on a dog if one does it??
I've said this before - dogs don't live to be 80 yrs. old, or 90 yrs. old.
If they did, I could see the issue. But the hard cold fact is, we will outlive them. They will die of something.

My dogs are much much more than just a uterus (or testicles) with hair and legs, and if the people you hang out with don't view them as more than that, that's their problem, not yours or ours.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:30 AM   #125 (permalink)
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Whatever the reason, it exists so why are you railing against it so?? This is a different country, different culture, what is wrong with that?? Nothing. Nothing at all.
There's a number of health issues that spaying can prevent - so what is the big "assault" on a dog if one does it??
I've said this before - dogs don't live to be 80 yrs. old, or 90 yrs. old.
If they did, I could see the issue. But the hard cold fact is, we will outlive them. They will die of something.

My dogs are much much more than just a uterus (or testicles) with hair and legs, and if the people you hang out with don't view them as more than that, that's their problem, not yours or ours.
I agree msevette: I have never understood why it's anyones business what someone else does with regard to S/N.

Value is like beauty, in the eye of the beholder.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:48 AM   #126 (permalink)
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I agree msevette: I have never understood why it's anyones business what someone else does with regard to S/N.

Value is like beauty, in the eye of the beholder.
Yeah...which is exactly what I said in my post but for some reason people still decided to correct me on it.

I KNOW that there are people out there that would pay for a green dog, or a trained dog, or an older dog because they know what the health/temperament is like. But there are a lot more people out there that wouldn't. I think what OP is getting at is that once a dog is S/N, for most SchH people, the value greatly decreases (doesn't matter why, I bet most of them can't even give you a reason). So she is wondering why people do it to the animal when they're planning on rehoming?

And yes...there are other sport venues where people would be fine with taking in those dogs...and some of you have had success placing dogs in those homes. But the fact is...we all run in our own circles. So SchH people will have better luck finding a SchH home than they would an agility or flyball home. On top of that...unless you're really attached to the GSD breed, a GSD is not the top dog for agility or flyball.

So what I'm getting at, is that for some reason, if you don't S/N the dog you plan on rehoming...you have 10 people knocking at your door to give your dog a home. If you do S/N...you'll be lucky to get one. Is this correct Mrs. K?
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:51 AM   #127 (permalink)
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So what I'm getting at, is that for some reason, if you don't S/N the dog you plan on rehoming...you have 10 people knocking at your door to give your dog a home. If you do S/N...you'll be lucky to get one. Is this correct Mrs. K?
Yes!

That is exactly it.
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:00 AM   #128 (permalink)
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Not really what I meant.....Not everyone is going to agree with you on the the value of a dog having the ability to reproduce or whether or not they can be sold.....for many people the value has more to do with how well the dog competes, how well the dog works (SAR, police k9 etc) and for most people a dog's value comes from companionship.

I have rehomed a dog.....and I have thought long and hard about rehoming one of my current dogs. I have strong opinions about when *I* believe it's approprite for ME to get rid of a dog and when its not. I am entitled to my opinion just as you are. Part of the reason this is driving me so crazy is because I am staring at the fact that a young dog that I own and have put a TON of work into may not be able to compete in my sport. But I sought him out and bought him as a puppy and now I feel that he is MY dog, I am attached to him and he is VERY attached to me.... so he will stay. If you need to rehome your dog that's fine, I suggested looking into other sports where the value lies in whether or not the dog can compete, not whether or not the dog can reproduce.

(I have to admit I can get a bad attitude towards this stuff because I have known some people who were overly callous towards their sporting dogs. I am not saying that is you, I am just saying that it exists and it makes me sad.)

Yeah, I didn't rehome Indra because she didn't work out for SAR or for SchH. That wasn't the reason. She is an excellent dog. Especially for SAR. Not every dog jumps out of a building, hits the ground hard, gets up with a wagging tail and indicating like nothing ever happened all happy and tail wagging. I love her. But I had to make a decision based on my situation and that is not a good one.

I am trying to build a business out of desperation and the money I got from her, went halfway into the costs involved and halfway into a security blanket, so I can up and leave to Florida if I have to.
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:04 AM   #129 (permalink)
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Ok, but then if we are using Schutzhund people as an example, they are probably not very likely to S/N, right? So it's kind of a moot point anyway, in that case.

I think a big part of the S/N argument is that here in NA, people are brought up being told that this is the responsible thing to do with their pets. And I think largely it is.

I guess you just have to do what is right for you. And I wouldn't come down on someone for spaying or neutering, nor would I for keeping their pets intact. Either way, I expect people to be responsible for their animals and not let them run around willy-nilly, getting themselves into trouble.

I spayed my dog, for reasons mentioned before. I do think there are health benefits, and yes it's more convenient, but if I truly believed it was bad for my dog, I wouldn't do it just for my sake.

My dog was off for about one day when she was spayed, and that was more from the anesthetic, then didn't look back. So I can't say it's caused her to suffer any either.

She's still my wild, high drive, sassy girl.
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:31 AM   #130 (permalink)
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Personally, and I'm speaking as a non-breeder, it's a bonus to me if the dog has already been spayed/neutered. Since I don't intend to breed and I don't care to deal with an intact dog (for several reasons), at least I don't have to pay for that surgery if it's already been done. So the value to me is actually greater.

If I were a breeder or competitor, I might feel differently. The times that I've had to re-home a dog, I've been willing to go either way depending on the dog in question and the new owner. Rescues are automatically spayed/neutered. If the dog is a breedworthy purebred, I'd leave it up to the new owner, if I trusted their judgement.
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