Taking the value out of a dog

[Liesje]

Has anyone tried to sell an altered SchH started or titled dog to another SchH competitor? I'm not sure it's even done that often... OK my friend just bought her own dog *back* and I think the people she sold him to had him neutered but then did nothing with him (no training, no bonding, complained about all these things he supposedly did) so she bought him back. Other than that...all the dogs I've known that have been bought/sold SchH home to SchH home have been intact, but I can only think of a few instances...

[RowdyDogs]

Originally Posted by Liesje

Has anyone tried to sell an altered SchH started or titled dog to another SchH competitor? I'm not sure it's even done that often... OK my friend just bought her own dog *back* and I think the people she sold him to had him neutered but then did nothing with him (no training, no bonding, complained about all these things he supposedly did) so she bought him back. Other than that...all the dogs I've known that have been bought/sold SchH home to SchH home have been intact, but I can only think of a few instances...

I have not done it personally, but I have seen two SchH dogs (I don't recall whether they were just well-started in training or titled, if I ever knew) placed into homes that got them specifically because of that training. I mentioned it earlier I think...both homes weren't necessarily SchH homes, but they were looking for protection dogs as well as companions, and kept up with the training even though they weren't specifically into dog sports. One got really into SchH as a result though, from what I heard.

They were both kind of special circumstances though and I don't know how normal it is, though just from knowing a lot of people in the local SchH community I don't think it's all that common--could easily be wrong on that though.

[Mrs.K]

Originally Posted by Liesje

Has anyone tried to sell an altered SchH started or titled dog to another SchH competitor? I'm not sure it's even done that often... OK my friend just bought her own dog *back* and I think the people she sold him to had him neutered but then did nothing with him (no training, no bonding, complained about all these things he supposedly did) so she bought him back. Other than that...all the dogs I've known that have been bought/sold SchH home to SchH home have been intact, but I can only think of a few instances...

Exactly!

but I have seen two SchH dogs (I don't recall whether they were just well-started in training or titled, if I ever knew) placed into homes that got them specifically because of that training. I mentioned it earlier I think...both homes weren't necessarily SchH homes, but they were looking for protection dogs as well as companions,

Personal protection is different from SchH. People generally don't want to be bothered with dogs in heat and if personal protection is all they want them for, that I can see the dog being speutered for that purpose.

Everyone probably knows one or two people that have sold a speutered SchH dog but the point is, that is very unusual and generally doesn't happen.

[selzer]

Originally Posted by martemchik

To each their own...to me a dog older than a few months has no monetary value at all. I'll compensate a breeder for their work, and I'd compensate a rescue for their work if I was adopting, but I'd look at it more as a donation to the rescue so they can do what they do rather than a true payment for said dog.

If I was looking for a dog, and someone wanted to re-home theirs and there was an interest, I would not expect to pay for that dog. No matter how many titles he/she has slapped on behind their name. Sorry...if you're re-homing, and I'm giving this dog a "pet/working" home, I'm doing YOU a favor. If they want money to "make sure I'm a good home" I'll move on to the next person with a dog that needs a home (there's no shortage of them). If (Like in Mrs. K's situation) I was doing something that I really needed to make sure a dog was good for, I'd definitely consider paying for an older dog...but even then I understand why the neutering/spaying thing would matter. Say I paid for the dog to be a great SAR dog...and although not a guarantee, logically if that dog had puppies they would be more inclined to be better at SAR...possibly giving me my next generation of SAR dog at a lower cost and also possibly providing more SAR dogs for others to use. If the dog is bred...I have less chance/risk that the puppy won't work out. If that dog is speutered...I have to go through this again in x amount of years to find my next dog.

Here is a conversation I overheard this weekend at my club...a breeder has an 18 month old male that didn't work out for conformation. She wasn't to rehome him. Someone at the club told others about him and they're interested. The price the lady said (without talking to breeder) was $500, the breeder said she'd be happy with $250 but since she already told them $500, tell them $350. Why the sudden change of $100? Because you now know you can get that much?

Now...my dogs breeder...had a year old pup returned to them by the family due to circumstances that aren't the dog's fault. They just want to find her a good home and wouldn't ask for any money. Why? They've been compensated for that dog once, now it just deserves a good home.

I also know both of these situations are pet homes and not Schutzhund, but either way, its just the mindset of the people that are looking to either rehome or adopt another dog.

Not everyone wants to risk buying a puppy. They can see the temperament and the hip and elbows, and the size and structure of an adult dog. It actually makes sense to spend MORE money to get a green or started dog for sport, work or breeding in a lot of cases. Not everyone is hung up on the cuteness of puppies, and the need to have the baby months of a dog. Certainly not everyone looks at dogs beyond a few months of age as worthless in a monetary sense.

Most police departments do not start with puppies, many buy the dog already trained, but others buy green dogs and train them themselves, but starting with a puppy is such a crap shoot, that few start with puppies.

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by RowdyDogs

I have not done it personally, but I have seen two SchH dogs (I don't recall whether they were just well-started in training or titled, if I ever knew) placed into homes that got them specifically because of that training. I mentioned it earlier I think...both homes weren't necessarily SchH homes, but they were looking for protection dogs as well as companions, and kept up with the training even though they weren't specifically into dog sports. One got really into SchH as a result though, from what I heard.

They were both kind of special circumstances though and I don't know how normal it is, though just from knowing a lot of people in the local SchH community I don't think it's all that common--could easily be wrong on that though.

Right, I've seen people who want trained or titled dogs but don't actually do SchH themselves buy adult titled dogs and do whatever they want with them, but perhaps we're all getting our panties in a bundle over nothing. I really don't think there's a huge issue with selling SchH dogs within the SchH community. For one, like I said, the general attitude is that the dogs aren't altered unless they need to be, so it's not like someone insisting on an altered dog couldn't find one for sale, or someone who wanted their dog altered couldn't buy an intact one and alter it. I've never heard of a SchH person finding a green or young dog they really liked but not buying it because it was already altered. I think the whole concept that within the SchH community an altered dog has less value is kind of a moot point. As far as other sports go...well if you want your dogs altered, you're in luck! You can buy an altered dog, or buy and intact dog an alter it.

[KristiM]

Originally Posted by martemchik

To each their own...to me a dog older than a few months has no monetary value at all. I'll compensate a breeder for their work, and I'd compensate a rescue for their work if I was adopting, but I'd look at it more as a donation to the rescue so they can do what they do rather than a true payment for said dog.

If I was looking for a dog, and someone wanted to re-home theirs and there was an interest, I would not expect to pay for that dog. No matter how many titles he/she has slapped on behind their name. Sorry...if you're re-homing, and I'm giving this dog a "pet/working" home, I'm doing YOU a favor. If they want money to "make sure I'm a good home" I'll move on to the next person with a dog that needs a home (there's no shortage of them). If (Like in Mrs. K's situation) I was doing something that I really needed to make sure a dog was good for, I'd definitely consider paying for an older dog...but even then I understand why the neutering/spaying thing would matter. Say I paid for the dog to be a great SAR dog...and although not a guarantee, logically if that dog had puppies they would be more inclined to be better at SAR...possibly giving me my next generation of SAR dog at a lower cost and also possibly providing more SAR dogs for others to use. If the dog is bred...I have less chance/risk that the puppy won't work out. If that dog is speutered...I have to go through this again in x amount of years to find my next dog.

Here is a conversation I overheard this weekend at my club...a breeder has an 18 month old male that didn't work out for conformation. She wasn't to rehome him. Someone at the club told others about him and they're interested. The price the lady said (without talking to breeder) was $500, the breeder said she'd be happy with $250 but since she already told them $500, tell them $350. Why the sudden change of $100? Because you now know you can get that much?

Now...my dogs breeder...had a year old pup returned to them by the family due to circumstances that aren't the dog's fault. They just want to find her a good home and wouldn't ask for any money. Why? They've been compensated for that dog once, now it just deserves a good home.

I also know both of these situations are pet homes and not Schutzhund, but either way, its just the mindset of the people that are looking to either rehome or adopt another dog.

Totally agree with this post!

[Mrs.K]

Yah... damned if you do, damned if you don't. Selling IS re-homing. Just saying.

Re-homing, Selling, Adopting... in the end it's all the same. No matter how you call it.

Some cry if you re-home a dog for free others cry if you sell the dog.

Honestly, I don't care what you do. It's none of anyones business unless you dump the dog at the side of the road or leave him outside of a shelter.

Also, it's kind of sad that people believe that you don't love the dog just because you are selling and not "rehoming" it. Selling IS re-homing. When I dropped off Indra I was standing in my trainers apartment crying like a five year old, knowing that I would never see her again. I cried just as much as MaDeuces owner when she dropped off MaDeuce at my place.

She didn't charge me anything for MaDeuce. I did get money for Indra. But both of us have one thing in common. We both keep tabs on "our" dogs. We are both with the new owner in contact. She with me, and I with Indra's new owner and both of us would take "our" dogs back in a heart beat.

I actually talked to MaDeuces old owner and she said to let her know and she will somehow make it work because it's just not the same without MaDeuce and I have to agree with her. It's not the same without Indra and it wouldn't be the same without MaDeuce. MaDeuce is always good for a laugh. I love how crafty she is. I love how she's giving me the run around and how she's dragging stuff outside and how she's all consuming.

No matter how you re-home your dogs. It's NEVER easy and it's not supposed to be easy.

[KristiM]

Not everyone is going to agree with you, no matter how many different ways you word it. If its no ones business then don't start a discussion about it on a public forum.

[mycobraracr]

After reading this post, I think too many people are stuck on the money factor. I think the "value" is more the workability of the dog. I know tons of schutzhund and other protection sport people that have no desire to ever breed but still want the dog intact for other reasons. I'm one of them. I would venture to say that the majority of protection sport people want their dogs intact. As far as saying spuetering an animal has no effect on drive, I don't know how any one would test that. Too many variables to make that a claim.

[Mrs.K]

Originally Posted by KristiM

Not everyone is going to agree with you, no matter how many different ways you word it. If its no ones business then don't start a discussion about it on a public forum.

This discussion was NOT about me selling my dog! This discussion is about spaying a dog and taking it's value with that! However, quite a few posts hit the "If I EVER was in a situation like that..." nerve describing exactly what happened to me and pinching me with as many needles as possible!

Sorry, but unless you ARE in that kind of situation you don't know what you are going to do.

Re-homing is Re-homing but spaying "just because..." that I will never understand. Yeah, I do have a different mindset on that. But I have a different mindset on guns too. I come from a different culture and I cannot comprehend the American way of thinking on that. To me it is an invasion into the dog and unless there is something wrong with the dog, I wouldn't do it.

Also, it's taking the responsibility away from people. They should be held responsible much more than they are but in the US everything seems to be about convenience. So is spaying. "Here, let's spay this dog, so you don't have to worry about heat and opps litters."