Taking the value out of a dog

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by msvette2u

To speak to crossbreeding, I think it's people's notions that...Dog breed A is good at this and so is Dog Breed B, so let's mix them and get...SUPER DOG!

Well, I guess in a sense, yes, but the thing is they aren't really a flyball superdog if that's what you mean. The Whippet is by far the best breed for flyball. Perfect size, speed, fastest breed in the sport. A Border Staffy approaches the Whippet in speed but is far easier to train, a better family dog (more rough and tumble, whereas the Whippet club describes them as not), more sociable, and far more versatile. The Whippet has perfect conformation but not the right type of drive (sight hounds in a venue where there are dozens of other dogs running around and toys being thrown about....yeah you can imagine). So what the Border Staffy brings is a more versatile type of dog, not a dog *just* for one sport. They are more of an active/family/sport/versatility superdog.

[msvette2u]

Well, I guess in a sense, yes, but the thing is they aren't really a flyball superdog if that's what you mean.

I don't mean anything or believe anything.
I think it's sad people can't appreciate breeds for their own attributes but have to cross breeds to come up with "new improved" breeds, but that is what appears to be happening in some venues.
Although we're straying a ways off topic, what was wrong with just border collies doing that work, or Am Staffs - well, I could see size with amstaffs, but BCs?? Why not just use that breed??

In the case of our breeder (of the rescued dog we had) and I use that term loosely, he felt GSDs alone weren't working out for him, so crossed with Dutch.

Keeping in mind, this whole rabbit trail started because someone made a comment about how Sch people were more serious (??) than flyball people, etc., and my comment was, maybe different but certainly no less compulsive...

[KristiM]

I think that the difference in attitude in agility is due to the fact that the emphasis of value is placed on the trainers and less so the dogs themselves. Take a national level agility competitor, they likely wont ever make a cent off their dogs but make a good deal off money teaching others. Take Susan Garrett for example, because of her success in the sport with her own dogs people will pay $500+ just to take an ONLINE course with her (I don't even want to know how much it would cost to go to one of her camps!) Whereas your average national level competitor in schutzhund probably makes a few bucks doing seminars etc because of successes with their personal dogs but likely would do a lot better breeding nice dogs for the sport rather than teaching.

I can't really speak to how this works in flyball, I did compete in the sport but it was only for a year or so and that was over 8 years ago. I know the sport has evolved a lot since then.

Now I know people are gonna go "see that's because you can do agility with crappy dogs!" Which is absolutely not true, to do really well in schutzhund you need a talented dog with a certain temperament and you need the same for agility. The qualities are just different. In both sports to get to high levels you need equally talented dogs and handlers.


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[Chicagocanine]

Actually coming from a biology background, outcrossing can do a lot of good if done carefully and I think it is something breeders are going to need to start looking into in the future if they want to preserve the health of many of the breeds we have now, considering how inbred many of them are since they have banned all outcrossing for so long and have closed studbooks.

[selzer]

Originally Posted by Chicagocanine

Actually coming from a biology background, outcrossing can do a lot of good if done carefully and I think it is something breeders are going to need to start looking into in the future if they want to preserve the health of many of the breeds we have now, considering how inbred many of them are since they have banned all outcrossing for so long and have closed studbooks.

And yet in our breed, we have several pretty distinct lines. The dogs would be able to be registered as well. But the show breeders do not even want to cross the German showlines into their lines anymore, they used to quite a bit, but now the specialty lines seem so far on one side, and the attitude about the German dogs, at least at my club is, well... Well, I don't even think some of them realize the German Show Lines are not one and the same to the various working lines.

I guess if people are so set on their own lines, that they would not consider an outcross from one of the other lines. I think most of them would be as apt to agreeing to mixing their dogs with a kangaroo than mixing it with a different breed.

[Blitzkrieg1]

Iv been shopping around for another Schutzhund dog thats between 1-2 years, any time the dog is altered I move on. As far as I am concerned any working/sport dog thats altered will have less drive and have no chance of passing on his / her genetics. At the club I go to, there is quite a bit of dog trading and buying and selling and none of these dogs are fixed..nor are they probably ever going to be whether they are bred or not. There are also a number of people at the club that supply PDs and yes they sometimes get dogs from local club members and the local area.
Fixing a working / sport dog does remove value and removes the desirability of the dog.
Personally I dont think Ill ever breed my female but she will remain unspayed, I would like to keep her forever but life can happen.

Breeders can demand a title before breeding rights are handed over, but fixing a purebred working / sport dog or one that is capable of the work makes no sense, and does a disservice to the dog. Same as people who refuse to crop their dobe's ears then when life happens the dog is up on the classifieds for months..they cant even give the dog away. Im sure they got to feel very good about not mutilating their fur baby..but in the end they only vastly curtailed the number of homes that would be open to him or her.
You can rail against people treating like equipment or not valueing dogs for their intrinsic worth, or their ability to pass on genetics, but this is the real world we live in. Most people in dogs do care about their dogs but in many cases theres practicalities to consider. Factors that increase value and desirability. There are much easier ways dogs to make money then working with dogs lol.

[Cassidy's Mom]

Originally Posted by Liesje

Well, I guess in a sense, yes, but the thing is they aren't really a flyball superdog if that's what you mean. The Whippet is by far the best breed for flyball. Perfect size, speed, fastest breed in the sport. A Border Staffy approaches the Whippet in speed but is far easier to train, a better family dog (more rough and tumble, whereas the Whippet club describes them as not), more sociable, and far more versatile. The Whippet has perfect conformation but not the right type of drive (sight hounds in a venue where there are dozens of other dogs running around and toys being thrown about....yeah you can imagine).

Totally agree with you on that. We have two young Whippets in our flyball club, and they're taking a LOT of training, most of it revolving around the retrieving part of flyball. Resource is blazingly fast and has a very nice box turn, but it's been a long struggle to get her to get the ball from the box and bring it all the way back to the handler. I think she was in training even before Halo, who has been racing since last April, and Re is still doing warmups and occasionally they give her a heat or two in competition to see how she does, but I don't think she's successfully completed a single one yet. We like to joke that Whippets have only a single "ball" molecule in their brains, and figuring out how to activate it is the challenge. Keeping her focused and on task is always a struggle, even at practice, which is much less distracting than a tournament environment. Gnasher has also been training for a while and is nowhere near race ready - her owner is having the same problem regarding lack of interest in retrieving the ball. She's also crazy fast.

[G-burg]

Is the dog spayed... that value is gone and it drives me crazy to see really nice working dogs, struggling to find a home because they got spayed by the speuter crazy community.

I can't say I agree with this.. Nor do I think the dogs valve decreases. Because that spayed/neutered dog can have valve to someone, somewhere..

Nor do I think a dogs drive decreases when they've been spayed or neutered.. or at least not that I've seen..

If one is looking to make money Mrs. K then yeah I suppose the dog loses it's valve, but not everyone in the sport of SchH is looking to breed their dog or produce puppies.. Good genetics or not.. Some people have other motives for doing the sport..

[Mrs.K]

Originally Posted by G-burg

I can't say I agree with this.. Nor do I think the dogs valve decreases. Because that spayed/neutered dog can have valve to someone, somewhere..

Nor do I think a dogs drive decreases when they've been spayed or neutered.. or at least not that I've seen..

If one is looking to make money Mrs. K then yeah I suppose the dog loses it's valve, but not everyone in the sport of SchH is looking to breed their dog or produce puppies.. Good genetics or not.. Some people have other motives for doing the sport..

Well, it's my experience and you won't find anyone, back where I'm from, that would ever spay their dog without a medical reason. Everything else is viewed as an invasion into the animals health and completely unnecessary.

Maybe people are just better equipped or better prepared to deal with bitches in heat and certain other things than pet people are (yes I'm generalizing). I know I have no issue in separating males and females.
I have an intact male and female and in four years I've had not a single oops litter even though I don't do anything other special than crating.

If you listen to the speuter crazy chorus keeping two intact dogs together is merely impossible without producing an oops litter. So no reason to spay.
Unless I have proof of pyometra, there will be no spay.
And I won't spay just because there could be a health problem down the road. Nobody is taking out my reproductive organs either. And I won't spay just because I might re-home or sell a dog and just because the new owners could be bad.
I would like to re-home my dogs within the community and if I pay 80 bucks an hour and have an awesome bitch, then yeah, I would like for her to continue that path and possibly be used to strengthen the gene pool.

[G-burg]

Well this thread was about a dog losing it's valve if it's spayed or neutered and that's what I was commenting on..