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post #31 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-10-2013, 06:11 PM
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Same as the famous foxes!

Don't you think if they bred and raised the wolves and their offspring for a few generations and selected the most obedient that the results would have been different after a few generations!
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post #32 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-10-2013, 06:31 PM
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You do know that dogs were only recently reclassified as a subspecies of wolves, right? Before, they were considered a separate species. So before that, did you think that dogs were not descended from wolves?
I was 12 when that happened and i always thought dogs were a domesticated version of wolves and science haven't caught up yet

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post #33 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-10-2013, 06:36 PM
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One interesting tidbit that a friend of mine who is actively involved with a wolf sanctuary told me...apparently one of the earliest ways (other than knowledge of parentage or DNA testing) you can tell a wolf cub from a dog puppy is their ability to understand what a human pointing at something means. Wolves don't have an inherent understanding of that, so wolf cubs have to be taught what a human pointing or gesturing towards something means. On the other hand, dogs have been so thoroughly domesticated that puppies generally instinctively understand the movement, even with primitive breeds. And this is true across cultures (since I know that our standard US "point with the index finger" is not universal, but a basic gesture to point something out is).

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post #34 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-10-2013, 06:51 PM
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I also want to add this, because domestication is a big interest of mine due to my work with mustangs:

I've mentioned before that I'm a professional horse trainer, and I have to make some comparisons here...there is still a variety of truly wild horse, Przewalski's Horse, in existence in Asia. Przewalski's horse resembles the domesticated horse, but handling them is totally different. They can be tamed, but their demeanor is totally different.

Zebras are the same. The zebra strongly resembles the horse (minus the distinctive stripes), and the herd behavior is largely the same. But zebras are wild. People do tame them and I even know of a person who competes with a zebra (unsuccessfully) in endurance rides, but I've also trained and trimmed (I'm a farrier and worked with a local zoo) zebras and they're awful from a domestication standpoint. It's a constant battle--you have to always be on your toes, managing the situation, rewarding the zebra for positive behavior and never giving them a chance to challenge you because they weigh like 700+ pounds and their hooves really hurt.

On the other hand, I've trained several BLM mustangs (US wild horses for international readers) captured from the wild. These horses are more accurately described as feral, because they are the descendants of domesticated horses that escaped from Spanish conquistadors, European-descended American ranchers, and native peoples (and keep in mind that the Native horses were also descended from European horses, since Europeans reintroduced the horse to the Americas, but Native peoples bred their horses for distinctive traits). But mustangs are relatively easily brought back into true domestication if you know what you're doing. It's very different from a truly wild equine such as a zebra or Przewalski's Horse.

So yeah...I may not have both wolf and dog experience, but based on my experience with domesticated vs. truly wild (not feral) equines, I couldn't accept pack theory even without the more scholarly refutations that have come out.

The rowdy dogs:
Hector-2 y/o GSD (mix?) rescue
Scooter-12 y/o ACD/Border Collie mix
Bandit-8 y/o ACD
Wooby-14 y/o ACD
Abutiu "Abi"-ACD puppy and hopeful future SAR dog!
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post #35 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-10-2013, 08:56 PM Thread Starter
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how did this topic become a platform for creationist propaganda, where are the mods at? can i let loose my wrecking ball now?
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post #36 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-10-2013, 09:02 PM
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where are the mods at? can i let loose my wrecking ball now?
We're paying attention. So far, no rules have been broken. And no.

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post #37 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-10-2013, 09:10 PM
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how did this topic become a platform for creationist propaganda, where are the mods at? can i let loose my wrecking ball now?

What is this? Is it like communist propaganda?

Something that the speaker doesn't agree with?
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post #38 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-10-2013, 09:12 PM
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I also want to add this, because domestication is a big interest of mine due to my work with mustangs:

I've mentioned before that I'm a professional horse trainer, and I have to make some comparisons here...there is still a variety of truly wild horse, Przewalski's Horse, in existence in Asia. Przewalski's horse resembles the domesticated horse, but handling them is totally different. They can be tamed, but their demeanor is totally different.

Zebras are the same. The zebra strongly resembles the horse (minus the distinctive stripes), and the herd behavior is largely the same. But zebras are wild. People do tame them and I even know of a person who competes with a zebra (unsuccessfully) in endurance rides, but I've also trained and trimmed (I'm a farrier and worked with a local zoo) zebras and they're awful from a domestication standpoint. It's a constant battle--you have to always be on your toes, managing the situation, rewarding the zebra for positive behavior and never giving them a chance to challenge you because they weigh like 700+ pounds and their hooves really hurt.

On the other hand, I've trained several BLM mustangs (US wild horses for international readers) captured from the wild. These horses are more accurately described as feral, because they are the descendants of domesticated horses that escaped from Spanish conquistadors, European-descended American ranchers, and native peoples (and keep in mind that the Native horses were also descended from European horses, since Europeans reintroduced the horse to the Americas, but Native peoples bred their horses for distinctive traits). But mustangs are relatively easily brought back into true domestication if you know what you're doing. It's very different from a truly wild equine such as a zebra or Przewalski's Horse.

So yeah...I may not have both wolf and dog experience, but based on my experience with domesticated vs. truly wild (not feral) equines, I couldn't accept pack theory even without the more scholarly refutations that have come out.

Maybe Zebras are different and wild because they have to live with LIONS around them whereas the horses don't?

That would make me be a little more wild!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #39 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-10-2013, 10:21 PM
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Mustangs are preyed upon by mountain lions so no go there.

The rowdy dogs:
Hector-2 y/o GSD (mix?) rescue
Scooter-12 y/o ACD/Border Collie mix
Bandit-8 y/o ACD
Wooby-14 y/o ACD
Abutiu "Abi"-ACD puppy and hopeful future SAR dog!
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post #40 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-10-2013, 10:31 PM
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One interesting tidbit that a friend of mine who is actively involved with a wolf sanctuary told me...apparently one of the earliest ways (other than knowledge of parentage or DNA testing) you can tell a wolf cub from a dog puppy is their ability to understand what a human pointing at something means. Wolves don't have an inherent understanding of that, so wolf cubs have to be taught what a human pointing or gesturing towards something means. On the other hand, dogs have been so thoroughly domesticated that puppies generally instinctively understand the movement, even with primitive breeds. And this is true across cultures (since I know that our standard US "point with the index finger" is not universal, but a basic gesture to point something out is).
I've heard this before, but I was told it was to determine if a dog was intelligent. An intelligent dog will look at what you are pointing at, and a dumb one won't. My dog doesn't understand pointing at something at all, so I was told he was stupid .


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