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Old 12-30-2012, 10:44 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Understand...what??
I am not a professional trainer. But I train dogs daily. I just am not going to sit around saying I'm a trainer because, well, there's nothing magic in determining what a dog needs and working with it that way as opposed to using a one size fits all method that got this dingbat bitten not long ago


I'd say "if the shoe fits", but it's not you I'm talking about, is it?
So, if the shoe doesn't fit, don't shove it on the dude

So a very nice attitude, it would appear.

Well done reasoning and a logical approach as well.

And you make it very clear that I must agree with you about you not being a trainer - thanks for making that so clear to all of us readers on this forum.
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Old 12-30-2012, 10:50 PM   #82 (permalink)
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I'm confused as to how Cesar is being "punished"? If he is, he's not showing signs of discomfort...???


Sound training vs. a hairbrained scheme liable to get yourself injured and a messed up dog?
First part...people are clearly showing their dislike of him. On a public, internet forum, people that have NO DIRECT KNOWLEDGE of him, are making huge assumptions of him and his training methods based on the people that they have met/seen in public. Which is fine...I've met plenty of Cesar followers that wouldn't know how to properly train a dog, I look at them the same way I look at all the other people that have poorly trained dogs and claim to have used this trainer or that trainer, or are part of a kennel/obedience club that doesn't know up from down when it comes to dog training.

Second part...everything you said is SUBJECTIVE. What we need to realize is that every single person on this forum is just as qualified as the one that posts after them on how to judge a trainer. It's fine if you believe his methods are bad/wrong, but I just find it interesting that whenever he comes up (or in this case that he's going to charge $6000 for a seminar) his methods seem to be ripped apart and bashed at a level much higher than any of the others that are ever mentioned on the forum.
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Old 12-30-2012, 10:50 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Honestly I like CM up until the point that he touches a dog. If he ever tried to lay his hands on my dogs and do some of the things I've seen, it would be a race between who would get to his throat first me or my dog, lol. But the work that he does with the owners, just trying to get them to see some common sense, I think that is where he has value and based on his personality and delivery is actually able to get through to some owners that most of us probably wouldn't have the patience to deal with.

I don't call what he does "training" because he's basically coaching/counseling owners on the basics of proper dog ownership. If someone needs to spend $6K to get the basics I guess that's their prerogative, I know some new parents that will spend $35 per cloth diaper on their first newborn. As far as I know he hasn't trained dogs to do much of anything...
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Old 12-30-2012, 10:52 PM   #84 (permalink)
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If I have read a book that was helpful with a certain specific issue, I might recommend that book, as it helped me with that issue. But when people have a serious training issue, my advice is to come up with the money to go to a trainer. And a lot of the time it is a many pronged approach, read these books, look up NILIF, and get the money to go to a trainer. I think people will have better success with a trainer if they have better understanding of their dog, and of themselves, and how what they do affects what their dog does. There are no shortcuts, you have to read and look things up and have an open mind, and then you will be better suited to judge whether the trainer you picked is giving you good direction or not.
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Old 12-30-2012, 10:52 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Sound training vs. a hairbrained scheme liable to get yourself injured and a messed up dog?
But what if you already have a messed-up dog, Yvette? Lay-people like me turn to these famous idiots because no one else will help. Period.

I'll take it 1 step further & ask how many of you would've kept this dog we have? Most of our relatives & friends told us to PTS. No darn way that was gonna happen. Both hubby & I "saw" --- in our uneducated eyes - the potential of a dog that came to us broken. Not her fault. After lots of money on idiotic trainers & unnecessary vet bills (test for this or that, maybe that's why she's messed up...), I came here for help. Luckily, I didn't take the discard to mean this dog still wasn't worth the effort.

Is she perfect now? Good Lord - NO. Would I PTS? NO. Would I give her away? NO. Because we now have a dog that knows she's loved. Bad storm on Xmas Day blew down 1 whole section of fence - it leans against our home. Perfect escape avenue for Ziva. Did she take off? No. We let her out back - she does her business, then waits @ the back door to come in. She comes in, wagging that dangerous tail as she meanders down the hall. Then lets out a "barr-roor-waroo-roo once she's in the living room. She won't leave. She knows she's loved & she knows she's safe. Oh yes, she's still a work in progress. She lays down beside me when I return from chemo. Hubby says she won't move until I wake up. And this, from a fear-biting dog months ago. I wouldn't give her up for the world.

Lack of action can sometimes send an owner into PTS. When no one will listen, no one will help, no one will give direction. Ziva is lucky she landed with us - we're both stubborn, outspoken Aires. And she pays us back 100-fold. Sometimes, she comes with us to the Infusion Center (where I get my chemo) - the patients love this 95lb puppy! And the nursing home where my former mom-in-law resides (she's late-stage Alzheimers)? They love her, too. (I think they en joy the cat, Oliver, more - because it's a rare thing to see a cat there visiting) - but this big ol' Lunkhead is a hit.

And that - to me - is worth so much more than a non-responding forum, or CM, or VS, or any of them. In spite of her beginnings, it is working.
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Old 12-30-2012, 10:54 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Honestly I like CM up until the point that he touches a dog. If he ever tried to lay his hands on my dogs and do some of the things I've seen, it would be a race between who would get to his throat first me or my dog, lol. But the work that he does with the owners, just trying to get them to see some common sense, I think that is where he has value. I don't call what he does "training" because he's basically coaching/counseling owners. As far as I know he hasn't trained dogs to do much of anything...
So true! Of course I wouldn't let anyone touch my dog. But lets be serious...we don't have anywhere near the problems that the people on his show do. Be it genetics, well bred dogs, or the fact that when a problem comes up we fix it that day and not let it grow into a bigger issue. He teaches people that have no idea what they are doing, how to handle a dog. If you don't agree with his methods of doing it, fine, but its not the end of the world.

Like I've stated...there are trainers that suggest a lot worse than what Cesar does. I'm sure we all remember the guy that was shocking his 6 month old puppy at 55 with an ecollar and then spreading it on this forum like it was the greatest training method since the domestication of wolves. His trainer recommended that method...and he followed it, saw a result, and decided to tell the world about it. And Cesar doing his little finger poke is worse than that?
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Old 12-30-2012, 11:03 PM   #87 (permalink)
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I don't dislike him. Ok, he came into the country illegally and is still here -- that kind of bothers me. But I think he has a lot of gumption, and confidence, is not afraid of dogs, and could probably succeed with dogs using most any technique.

I think he started out using more compulsion and alpha-theory crap, but I think he has actually matured some in his later shows.

My first post on this thread, was, more power to him. I have read his book. But then I have read a lot of books by a lot of people. I think Ian Dunbar and Jan Fennel had better information in their books. I even had a book by that Brit we all liked when I was a kid, Walkies! Well, I read her book while my dad was getting an MRI, and I was shocked about the methods she was describing. If she was on the TV now, we would all be pounding on her too.
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Old 12-30-2012, 11:06 PM   #88 (permalink)
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So true! Of course I wouldn't let anyone touch my dog. But lets be serious...we don't have anywhere near the problems that the people on his show do. Be it genetics, well bred dogs, or the fact that when a problem comes up we fix it that day and not let it grow into a bigger issue. He teaches people that have no idea what they are doing, how to handle a dog. If you don't agree with his methods of doing it, fine, but its not the end of the world.

Like I've stated...there are trainers that suggest a lot worse than what Cesar does. I'm sure we all remember the guy that was shocking his 6 month old puppy at 55 with an ecollar and then spreading it on this forum like it was the greatest training method since the domestication of wolves. His trainer recommended that method...and he followed it, saw a result, and decided to tell the world about it. And Cesar doing his little finger poke is worse than that?
Well I guess for me there's not a spectrum of worse-ness. Some of the stuff I've seen CM do (publicly on his show) is not any better or worse than using the e-collar on a 6 month old dog.

I really pick and choose what methods and tools I use and it always depends on the dog and the goal. I can't say "CM is the worst" because some of the stuff is OK, some is borderline abusive. Same is true for a lot of other trainers. I like a few things ME does but some of it I find useless or ridiculous. I guess I'm just too much of a control freak with my dogs to go along with any one trainer and their "methods". I pick and choose what works and I execute it myself. I'd rather make a few mistakes along the way and learn. The last seminar I attended, I got hassled by the helper for not allowing someone else to handle my dog's line during protection. Sorry that's just not how I train. My money, my time, my dog, my training.
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Old 12-30-2012, 11:07 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Our trainer is from Michael Ellis school. We are happy with her and with his approach.

For the record though his one day seminar to train people on his philosophy of training is $1950.00 for the day. He gets a lot of people at those seminars.
So if you have the bucks you can go to anyone you want.

I don't understand why Cesar bothers people so much. If you don't like his approach don't pay any attention to what he does. Go find a trainer you like.

I think calling him an idiot because you don't like his philosophy or methods is just, well not printable here.

If no one will give any advice on dog bites they should remove the aggression forum. I've seen plenty of advice offered on dogs biting and everything else to do with aggression.

Cheri Lucas who works with and trained with Cesar lives near me and I have met her at some dog events. She follows Cesar's philosophy and whether anyone likes it or not that woman loves dogs as much as anyone on here. I believe Cesar does too.

Unfortunately there will be more Cesar threads and the haters will come out as usual.

To them, I say do your thing and let him do his.
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Old 12-30-2012, 11:13 PM   #90 (permalink)
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What's amazing is...he doesn't bother me worse than the dingbats on Craigslist, some of whom I know, who couldn't train their way out of a paperbag if they tried, or the ones I've been told about who recommended squirting a dog with water (and charged $$ for that) when it was fear aggressive, OH the list goes on.

But then there's these threads and we go, "Oh, yeah whatever, he doesn't walk on water" and people freak out. The reason these explode is that so many are so upset to hear anything remotely...not even bad, but even neutral about him!

He didn't hang the moon. No more than the trainers I see listing themselves on Craigslist because they taught their dog to sit.

For me to say that isn't a crime. It's not "punishing" or "insulting" to CM. I don't have any respect for him due to the hangup over alpha crap and some of the other things I've seen. I don't even have cable but if I did, I'd not watch his channel.
And I spend time with adopters explaining why his alpha theory is all washed up.
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