is there a separate retreive drive??

[x11]

that training can compensate for missing instinct/unprounced traits, at least to some degree in some traits?

most puppies won't do weave poles either but can if trained properly, is that the same thing as what you are saying.

[Liesje]

He makes a good point. Just because it's not present at 6-8 weeks does not mean it's missing. That's where it takes a breeder that knows the lines and how they mature. Pan wanted nothing to do with toys until he was about 6 months old. He was very mellow. Definitely a confident, pushy dog but not hyper active and not really interested in doing lots of fetching or playing obedience for toys. At around six months that lightbulb turned on, almost over night. With only a few months of training he became the fastest U-Fli German Shepherd in North America, so I would certainly not call his drive missing or unpronounced, lol. He's just a slow maturing dog, in almost every way. He is almost 2.5 years and still developing in certain areas, physically and mentally.

[x11]

i would not expect to see civil drive, defence or a whole bunch of things in a 5 week old pup either but would not conclude they were missing??

i was actually just asking if retreiving could be considered as a separate drive as chasing the ball is clearly prey - why do some puppies run it back to the human?

[onyx'girl]

why do some puppies run it back to the human?

they have pack drive

[x11]

interesting - could you expand on that? why do they (baby puppy) "think" that is benefical behaviour to the pack?

[onyx'girl]

A pup with pack drive would rather be with their pack than independent. So bringing back a ball would show that need. When choosing a pup, do you want the one that interacts with its littermates and humans or one that is off by itself exploring. I know exploring means confidence but it can also mean a pup that may not be as biddable or have pack drive.
This link explains it in more detail:
http://www.vanerp.net/ilse/GSDINFO/E...rament.htm#2.4. Pack Drive

[x11]

good reference, i will bookmark that thanks.

having monitored a few litters of others and seen people score them for this and that on a specific time day i can tell you for a fact that on a different time /day you could apply the same tests and score every pup differently. apart from obvious things i am not sure puppy tests mean a whole lot in the long term...jmo.

but still as you say the pup bringing the ball back shows pack drive....but if it just ran back without retrieving it would be the same pack drive would it not?

what role is carrying the ball back to the pack in biological survival terms?

[onyx'girl]

ball=prey(food) carrying it back *prey* to share with the pack? Heck IDK! A dog that takes it off to enjoy on its own may get challenged I would think. My dogs always want what isn't theirs, when they 'share' it isn't as high value.

having monitored a few litters of others and seen people score them for this and that on a specific time day i can tell you for a fact that on a different time /day you could apply the same tests and score every pup differently. apart from obvious things i am not sure puppy tests mean a whole lot in the long term...jmo.

Isn't that is why breeders don't rely on just one window of time when testing, they look at the overall view of the puppy before making determinations on the evaluations.

[Lilliam]

Originally Posted by x11

can you believe that competition retreivers (gun dogs) as i understand are all force retreived??

not sure if true or not.

Some are. The field lines very often have a natural retrieve.
Max retrieved and brought me a stuffy when I met the litter, at seven weeks. His first day at home he retrieved anything I threw. By the second week at home I'd trained him, with a clicker, to place the ball in my hand.
I've heard of the pinch the ear method to get retrievers to pick up an object. I trained Max to pick up a tiny dumbell as a young pup using a clicker.


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[Lilliam]

Originally Posted by onyx'girl

A pup with pack drive would rather be with their pack than independent. So bringing back a ball would show that need. When choosing a pup, do you want the one that interacts with its littermates and humans or one that is off by itself exploring. I know exploring means confidence but it can also mean a pup that may not be as biddable or have pack drive.
This link explains it in more detail:
http://www.vanerp.net/ilse/GSDINFO/E...rament.htm#2.4. Pack Drive

WOW I've got a lot to learn about GSDs before I get my puppy!!!! I don't think I'd ever heard if "pack drive." Thank you.


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