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Old 11-17-2012, 10:27 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Stosh View Post
I agree that they are gorgeous! The only one I know personally was a rescue and she's frankly a mess. Very timid and fearful, she couldn't even participate in a basic obedience class and walk in close proximity to the other dogs. She is coming along though. Not for the feint of heart
Are you suggesting that's something about DS in general? It sounds like that dog had a bad life, and most dogs in her shoes would probably be like she is.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:21 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Oh no, I was just talking about the only one I've been around for any length of time. I agree with MrsK that they are a breed that needs to be worked and probably isn't a good choice for someone like the OP who is wanting to add another dog to the home. Especially if the DS she's considering is a rescue and hasn't had a good foundation from the start. It would be a lot of work for her, especially since she has a 9 mo old gsd.
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:39 PM   #63 (permalink)
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I do think some dogs tolerate shelter/rescue life a lot better than others. I don't know if this is "by breed" or individuals within that breed.
Dachshunds and GSDs spring to mind as a generalization.

Maybe any dog that bonds like velcro to it's owner won't do well in rescue/shelter settings.
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Old 11-18-2012, 03:18 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Ive never had a dutch shepherd, but I can describe my experience with my belgian tervuren who had a similar temperment to a friend's dutch shepherd; from a pet owners point of view.
When I was 18, I adopted a working-line terv at 4 months old from a woman who was worried he was too much for her 12 year old son (duh). I had a very high energy australian shep/mix at the time and my parents had raised german shepherds when I was little. I remember thinking, 'belgian shepherd, german shepherd.. how different could they be?'
Yea, let me tell you just how different they can be.
I spent the next 3 or 4 years taking that dog and the austrailian mix hiking around 4 hours EVERY day through the roughest desert terrain I could find. When it got too dark to hike anymore, we'd go back home, pick up the mastiff who was not a hiker, and head to the dog park for another few hours. All-day hikes on the weekends. That was to be able to sleep through the night peacefully. Those two dogs literally ping-ponged off the walls with energy.
After about 4 years, he could be lived with on jogging 3x a week, nightly dog park trips, and all day hikes or roadtrips/camping on the weekend.
I had never hiked or jogged before I got that dog, I rarely camped. I have never seen another dog tackle cliffs and jump boulders and climb waterfalls like Kota. That dog was so cool, and game for anything I could possibly come up with to ask of him. I was in the best shape of my life. He trained me for triathlons, he kept up with the atvs at freakin top speed. I would have missed out on a lot of really cool stuff without that dog to force me to look for new outlets for him to release energy.
I dont think I ever really tired him out until he was ten or eleven years old, all I could do each day was take the edge off. It wasn't until he was 13 and a year into a battle with aggressive lymph cancer that he really slowed down, but he never once admitted he was an old man until the day his body gave out at 14 and he died with his head in my lap. I lost him in June of this year.
My all-time favorite dog.
That being said, the pups I got after him are german shepherds. They're 7months old now and rescues out of a shelter. Even TWO of them together dont compare
(dont EVEN compare) to what an epic raising Kota was. I have a lot less energy now and I work a lot more. Im not single anymore, and don't have all the time in the world to spend with the dogs. I couldn't do a belgian now, and I know a dutch shepherd that was just like him, so I wouldn't get a dutch shepherd either.
I just can't be without a shepherd (or two). I still have the australian shepherd mix, btw. She'll be 19 in january if her kidneys hold out.
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:57 PM   #65 (permalink)
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ok so i've been looking for a new "pup" for the family we have a 9 month old GSD and absolutely love her, but were trying to find an additional pup that will fit into our family. And i recently found a "dutch shepherd" pup and ive heard that theres no true breed called that but i guess im mainly just wondering if there a huge difference between the GSD's ive had and this "DS" that i may possibly end up rescuing?
Lots of replies on the Dutch Shepherd. However, I wanted to jump in and say it would be far better to wait until your current dog is an adult before adding another puppy. At 9 months, she deserves your full attention as far as socialization and training goes. A general rule of thumb is it is best not to add another puppy until your current dog is where you want them to be in terms of training and socialization (no major issues or behavioral concerns that need addressed, trustworthy in the house, through all their potentially quirky developmental stages, well trained and reliable at least in terms of general obedience such as comes when called, walks nicely on leash, stays when asked, etc). For most people, this means waiting until your youngest dog is at least two but often closer to four before adding a puppy. If you do not have those thing in place with your current dog, more than likely one or the other of the dogs will not be getting everything they need in terms of training or socialization. When you get a young puppy, your attention for at least the first 6 months has to focus on ensuring the puppy gets everything the puppy needs in terms of socialization, early training, housetraining and teaching the puppy to be a good pet. There is also valid concern about raising two puppies close in age together developing what people call "littermate syndrome", although it isn't limited just to dogs from the same litter. The happens when two closer enough in age puppies become overly bonded to each other, creating their own little "pack". Often when this happens, one dog will become very bold and assertive, even aggressive while the other is shy, fearful and nervous. When dogs are overly bonded to each other, it makes any training much harder to accomplish.

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Originally Posted by Nickyb View Post
Took this from another site
"Dutch Shepherds and malinois are in essense the same breed. Dutchies are stripy or black malinois that the fci countries would not register. KNVP in Holland doesn't give a rip about registrations (and usually any registration they do, everyone knows is a complete fake, but they can get "papers" on anything you want). The KNVP wants dogs that work, it doesn't care what they are.
While in unregistered working lines, they are considered one breed of different colors they are not really the same breed. In essence or otherwise. Malinois are actually one of four varieties of Belgian Shepherds and Dutch Shepherds are not one of the other varieties

The KNPV lines tend to be a result of crossing multiple breeds with Mals and Dutchies being the most common but those can include other Belgian Shepherds, GSDs, pit bulls or whatever else they feel will add to creating the ultimate working dog. The KNPV dogs are almost like their own breed all together. They're malinois but not Malinois, dutch shepherds but not Dutch Shepherds if that makes sense. They are similar but different to their purebred counterparts.

Like Mrs K I have found myself with an accidental Malinois. Father is from FCI working lines, dam is from KNPV lines. On the dam's side there are Mals, Dutchies and I believe GSDs in the pedigree a few generations back. It could be debated if his dam is a Malinois or not, depending on who you talk to. Some seem to consider the KNPV line dogs the only true Mals or Dutchies, even though they are not generally from pure breedings.

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Originally Posted by msvette2u View Post

At some point you have to wonder, why are there so many of these awesome dogs in rescue, and poor breeding/inexperienced owners would be top of my list if I were to guess.
This is a topic all on it's own. There are so very many Mals in rescue, more and more all the time. The majority are from working breeders or just a generation or two removed from working breeders. I suspect it is the same with the Dutchies, considering what most people know as Dutchies are from mix lines with Mals and can be born in the same litter. Can you imagine if GSD rescue was always full of mostly dogs from working lines? The biggest issue IMO is because breeding these ultimate working/sport dogs is very much a business for many people involved. They aren't breeding these dogs because they so love the breed, carefully placing puppies in well screened homes and keeping in touch with owners. They are breeding them because they feel these dogs suit their needs the best, some of them admittedly don't even seem to enjoy them as dogs at all. The ones who aren't quite up to par as ultimate sport or police dogs are sold to anyone who has the money, often with no strings attached.

My Mal puppy came from a very much average pet owner who got his dam from a local breeder/importer/trainer of police dogs. According to what his breeder (and I use that term loosely) told me the dam is not a stable dog and is very fear reactive. She got the male from a different breeder and he sounds like a really nice dog. When the male was 9 months old, she decided that she'd try her hand at breeding police dogs. Much to her surprise, there were no takers for the puppies. Go figure, no market to sell puppies from untested, unproven parents, one of which was still a puppy. I got Roust from someone she sold him to, who put him on CL within 48 hours of having him. Free to any home. He has some reactivity issues, although not near as a bad as his dam from what I hear. Once I tracked her down after getting him, I offered to help her place her remaining five then 3 month old puppies. She wasn't interested. Said she didn't care if she just kept them all. I tried to explain the potential issues and even danger of having a pack of untrained, unsocialized Mals but she wouldn't listen. Told me she's always had multiple dogs and never had a problem. Said that even though the puppies never see strangers or leave her property, they aren't undersocialized and Mals just don't like strangers. Then when they were 5 months old, she told me she was sending them to the pound unless I could help her place them. A friend of mine worked out a deal to keep them at the boarding kennel she works at, so we were able to get them into ABMC. Their story is not at all uncommon in the breed unfortunately. Lots of people looking to make money and no one wanting to take responsibility for the dogs long term. I don't have an issue with people making money breeding quality dogs. I do think it's a problem when it's done with so little regard to the well being of the dogs or the impact such things have on the breed as a whole.
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Old 11-18-2012, 06:38 PM   #66 (permalink)
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honestly i cant believe people are still stereotyping breeds on behavioural traits - it just misleads newbs and just aint true.

for every crazy crackhead mal i will show you 100 couch potato mals.

categorising traits by breed is plain stupid - originally thats how breeds were formed that and lots of inbreeding. there were just hound type dogs, herders, fighters, pointers....that was when it was actually valid to categorise dogs by traits. that all finished long before any of us were born.

the OP needs to forget what breed the dog is and have a good look at the dog, spend some time with it, maybe take an experienced person with you that might perform some tests, hopefully trial the dog in your family situation then make a decision on what you see over time in different environments not a whole lot of internet mumbo-jumbo garbage about generalised breed behaviour traits that is easily falsifiable.

don't get me wrong, certain lines for sure have been selected for particular traits even the best specialised breeders will tell you it's still a crap shoot in the most controlled of breeding programs.

i made the error of listening to too much internet talk on selecting a breed - lucky i found some honest reputable breeders that just talked about what i could expect in that particular mating not about what the breed standard says this therefore all of this breed will be like this, just doesn't happen lke that in the real world.

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Old 11-18-2012, 06:46 PM   #67 (permalink)
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I know someone who has a Dutchie and she does work him hard every day. They do Schutzhund, including tracking at least 4 days a week, the are doing IPO now, and they do herding. Plus they go hiking, and training of other sorts too. The dogs is brilliant, works well for her and lives with all kinds of animals, including two other dogs, rabbits, chickens, etc and 2 young kids. It works for her, but only because she is extremely active with the dog.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:22 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x11 View Post
honestly i cant believe people are still stereotyping breeds on behavioural traits - it just misleads newbs and just aint true.

for every crazy crackhead mal i will show you 100 couch potato mals.

categorising traits by breed is plain stupid - originally thats how breeds were formed that and lots of inbreeding. there were just hound type dogs, herders, fighters, pointers....that was when it was actually valid to categorise dogs by traits. that all finished long before any of us were born.

the OP needs to forget what breed the dog is and have a good look at the dog, spend some time with it, maybe take an experienced person with you that might perform some tests, hopefully trial the dog in your family situation then make a decision on what you see over time in different environments not a whole lot of internet mumbo-jumbo garbage about generalised breed behaviour traits that is easily falsifiable.

don't get me wrong, certain lines for sure have been selected for particular traits even the best specialised breeders will tell you it's still a crap shoot in the most controlled of breeding programs.

i made the error of listening to too much internet talk on selecting a breed - lucky i found some honest reputable breeders that just talked about what i could expect in that particular mating not about what the breed standard says this therefore all of this breed will be like this, just doesn't happen lke that in the real world.
I would love to see 1 PB couch potato Mal..... Yes sure, you let your Mal sit on a couch for the first 4 years of its life, guess what, the poor pup aint getting off the couch. What's your experience with the breed?




As a side note, I figured I'd add a picture of my trainer's DS, he does this every time Zoey comes in :roflmao:

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Old 11-20-2012, 05:09 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x11 View Post
honestly i cant believe people are still stereotyping breeds on behavioural traits - it just misleads newbs and just aint true.

for every crazy crackhead mal i will show you 100 couch potato mals.

categorising traits by breed is plain stupid - originally thats how breeds were formed that and lots of inbreeding. there were just hound type dogs, herders, fighters, pointers....that was when it was actually valid to categorise dogs by traits. that all finished long before any of us were born.

the OP needs to forget what breed the dog is and have a good look at the dog, spend some time with it, maybe take an experienced person with you that might perform some tests, hopefully trial the dog in your family situation then make a decision on what you see over time in different environments not a whole lot of internet mumbo-jumbo garbage about generalised breed behaviour traits that is easily falsifiable.

don't get me wrong, certain lines for sure have been selected for particular traits even the best specialised breeders will tell you it's still a crap shoot in the most controlled of breeding programs.

i made the error of listening to too much internet talk on selecting a breed - lucky i found some honest reputable breeders that just talked about what i could expect in that particular mating not about what the breed standard says this therefore all of this breed will be like this, just doesn't happen lke that in the real world.
can't agree with this. if you go to a reputable breeder, they strive to improve the breed and breed to the standard. part of the standard calls for the dog to be able to do its job. if you want a working dog you dont choose a chinese crested, if you want a herding dog you dont get a lab. you choose certain breeds because of certain characteristics. choosing a mal, hoping it will act differently than what it is bred for, imho, is a recipe for failure.
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:39 PM   #70 (permalink)
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don't mean to be argumentative but i think this is so obviously untrue in general. how many poodles are good at hunting truffles lol...your postiton is too silly to argue becuase it is so out of whack with reality.

are you the sort of guys that write the breed hype for breeders web-site design
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