Questions! (Pedigrees, drives, lines, etc).

[Konotashi]

Okay, so instead of making a ton of different threads, I figured I'd just put my questions all in one thread.

My first question!
I know that compared to the working lines, the WGSL dogs have notably less drive. What exactly is drive? Just a basic definition, what would you say drive is? Willingness to work? Ability to work? I know this has been discussed multiple times on this board, but it seems very vague.

What are the different kinds of drive? Prey, defense, aggression, etc. What role do they play in the ability of a dog to perform in SchH? How to they affect the dog's training regime?

I know I've said it once, but I'm going to say it again. (And probably again and again). I'm fairly partial to the WGSL, simply because they seem like a good fit for me. WL breeders seem to breed for dogs with over-the-top drives, and I feel like that would just bee too much dog for me to handle, especially as my first GSD. I know you can get dogs all over the spectrum, from soft to hard, all within the same litter. How common is it for WL litters to produce dogs with lower to medium drive? How common is it for WGSL litters to produce dogs with over-the-top drives?

For the pedigree readers - when you're reading a pedigree, what exactly do you look at? Do you know specifics about the dogs in the pedigree that lead to your conclusion about a breeding? Do you look at the dogs in the later generations, or all of the dogs in the pedigree? How do you know which dogs produce specific temperaments, health, and drives?

I was watching a few SchH videos the other day. I watched one from a breeder that charges a LOT for puppies. The dog in the video seemed uncertain and (I guess you could say) wary. When the handler would go a certain direction, the ears would set back. When the dog was approached after a down/stay, eye contact was averted and again, the ears were down. Is this typical? Or is that an example of a dog who had poor nerves, or maybe trained in a way that wasn't suited to the dog? The asking price for said dog was $9,000.

I think that's it for now.... I'm sure I'll think of more later.

[AgileGSD]

Originally Posted by Konotashi

My first question!
I know that compared to the working lines, the WGSL dogs have notably less drive. What exactly is drive? Just a basic definition, what would you say drive is? Willingness to work? Ability to work? I know this has been discussed multiple times on this board, but it seems very vague.

What are the different kinds of drive? Prey, defense, aggression, etc. What role do they play in the ability of a dog to perform in SchH? How to they affect the dog's training regime?

You may find this interesting;
Reactive Champion: Denise Fenzi Seminar: Drives and Why They Matter

Originally Posted by Konotashi

I know I've said it once, but I'm going to say it again. (And probably again and again). I'm fairly partial to the WGSL, simply because they seem like a good fit for me. WL breeders seem to breed for dogs with over-the-top drives, and I feel like that would just bee too much dog for me to handle, especially as my first GSD. I know you can get dogs all over the spectrum, from soft to hard, all within the same litter. How common is it for WL litters to produce dogs with lower to medium drive? How common is it for WGSL litters to produce dogs with over-the-top drives?

I think this depends on what the breeder is selecting for. People using SchH as a tool to make better breeding choices for working dogs are less likely to produce more extreme dogs. People who are into SchH as a sport and are looking to produce highly competitive SchH dogs are more likely to be selecting for extremes that will give their dogs an edge in competition. It isn't the level of drive you have to worry about so much as the rest of the package. Is the dog level headed? Does the dog become frustrated super quickly? Is the dog frantic? Is the dog able to settle when nothing is going on? Does the dog struggle with impulse control? Is the dog human oriented? Is the dog interested in working with you? Those things tend to make more of a difference in every day training and life than if the dog is low, moderate or high drive.

Originally Posted by Konotashi

I was watching a few SchH videos the other day. I watched one from a breeder that charges a LOT for puppies. The dog in the video seemed uncertain and (I guess you could say) wary. When the handler would go a certain direction, the ears would set back. When the dog was approached after a down/stay, eye contact was averted and again, the ears were down. Is this typical? Or is that an example of a dog who had poor nerves, or maybe trained in a way that wasn't suited to the dog? The asking price for said dog was $9,000.

It can be hard to say but such behaviors aren't unusual in dogs who are trained with a lot of compulsion. With people charging big money for trained dogs, it's a business and the goal often is to get the training done quickly and sell the dog.

[Emoore]

To me, the best synonym for drive is motivation. Prey drive, defense drive, pack drive. . . it can all be replaced fairly well with "motivation." How much the dog is motivated to chase prey, how motivated is the dog to defend, how motivated is the dog to be with his pack. A dog with balanced drives is one who is motivated by all of these things, but nothing to such a huge excess that it becomes an obsession and drowns everything else out.

When we talk in general terms of a "high drive" dog, I kind of parallel it to a motivated student. And the relationship between drive and energy in a dog is like the relationship between motivation and energy in a student. When a student has a lot of energy and no motivation, you get the class cut-up who is always causing problems and doesn't do anything productive. When you have a student with moderate energy and motivation, you have someone who gets good grades and becomes fairly successful in life. With a lot of energy and motivation, you get someone who is willing to put in the work to become a lifesaving neurosurgeon. Good for humanity, but you might not want to be their spouse. Too much drive + too much energy and you get the type A personality who makes a lot of money and dies of a heart attack at 40 years old. With a lot of motivation and low energy/drive, you get the perpetual student who's working on their 5th bachelor's degree at 40.

A dog with high energy and low drive is like that class cut-up-- no fun at all to have around. Moderate energy/moderate drive is like a moderately successful person- a good pet who likes to learn and needs some mental stimulation, but not a dog that you have to spend hours each day fulfilling. Just like the neurosurgeon wouldn't be happy or fulfilled working a 9-5 job in a company, a high energy/high drive dog wouldn't be happy or fulfilled as "just a pet" who gets 1 or 2 classes and a daily walk.