ceaser and victoria stillwell O.o

[AgileGSD]

Originally Posted by codmaster

Many people would euthanize a dog if it were totally out of control with DA. Esp. if they could not control it at all. What would you recommend with such a dog? Esp. if you don't feel that physical corrections would work to teach a dog to control itself?

Actually, physical corrections for this sort of reactive behavior often only make it worse by adding to the arousal level or worse still, cause the dog to redirect to the handler.

Off the top of my head, I have used abandonment training with good success on dogs who were reactive to dogs/kids while out on leash. Depending on the dog, counter conditioning can also work well, as can...well training the dog. A lot of people have reported very good success with the BAT method for aggression towards people and dogs as well.

Originally Posted by codmaster

You of course realize that it has been many generations since most of the bully breeds have ever been in the pit and certainly I would guess that most bully breeders are not selecting for the tendency to fight, are they?

Because dog fighting is so rare?

Originally Posted by codmaster

Seems like we tend to see a lot of folks on this forum who lament the dissappearance of certain traits in the GSD after only a relatively few generations. Wouldn't the same thing happen in the bully breeds; or are they perhaps immune to the inheritance genetics of other breeds?

Part of the problem of selecting bully breeds away from their "gameness" or any breed away from key temperament traits is that you risk changing the breed as a whole. Genetics generally don't work in a way where you can select for or against single traits. Many traits are tied in with other traits, inherited as clusters. These clusters can be physical or temperament related or even more interesting both physical and temperament related. For example, X temperament trait may be inherited with Y and Z physical traits. If you started selecting GSDs for super gregarious temperaments, over multiple generations you most likely would start to see physical changes in the dogs, as well as other characteristic temperament traits being lost. And at a point, they would stop being GSDs, in looks or temperament.

[Jessiewessie99]

Originally Posted by codmaster

I meant that they might have needed a pro trainer if the dog was a tough case.

They just needed help for minor problems and Ceasar's methods didn't help. So they used other methods.

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by Jessiewessie99

They just needed help for minor problems and Ceasar's methods didn't help. So they used other methods.

Jessie,

Ever think that maybe it wasn't the method but the way it was applied/used? Ceasar seems to have a very instinctive method and depends a lot on the individual use of it.

Unless you actually see someone doing the training it is very hard to know whether the method is at fault or it's use.

For example, if you were using a clicker and the trainer was consistently either too late to click or to give the associated reward or maybe too early to do so; then it wouldn't work very well. Would you then say the "Clicker training didn't work!"?

BTW what did they use that was successful?

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by AgileGSD

Actually, physical corrections for this sort of reactive behavior often only make it worse by adding to the arousal level or worse still, cause the dog to redirect to the handler.

And often does work, as it has in one of my dogs - but the correction does have to be applied at the right time before the dog gets too involved. It also depends greatly on the individual dog whether a correction will work or not and of course the level of correction must be appropriate to the dog and his/her level of arousal.

I.E. a good trainer can decide on the best apporach based on the individual dog.

.......................



Because dog fighting is so rare?

I don't think that dog fighting is as rare as you seem to imply. But what I was referring to was the fact that MOST of the dogs in the pit bull group are not currently and have not been for many generations ever likely to see the inside of a pit. None of the folks that I know that have a pit bull type dog would ever select a dog for his/her fighting ability.



Part of the problem of selecting bully breeds away from their "gameness" or any breed away from key temperament traits is that you risk changing the breed as a whole. Do you actually equate "gameness" with dog aggression? I wouldn't as i think gameness is defined very differently by most folks. Fighting is just one way to exhibit the "never say die" attitude.

Sort of like saying that intelligence in a GSD is shown only by Sch protection work - just not true!


Genetics generally don't work in a way where you can select for or against single traits. Many traits are tied in with other traits, inherited as clusters. These clusters can be physical or temperament related or even more interesting both physical and temperament related. For example, X temperament trait may be inherited with Y and Z physical traits. If you started selecting GSDs for super gregarious temperaments, over multiple generations you most likely would start to see physical changes in the dogs, as well as other characteristic temperament traits being lost. And at a point, they would stop being GSDs, in looks or temperament.

Thanks for the quick lesson in genetics! It does sort of prove my point but it would be a lot more useful if you had any evidence that DA is actually inherited in the bully breeds.

[Jessiewessie99]

Originally Posted by codmaster

Jessie,

Ever think that maybe it wasn't the method but the way it was applied/used? Ceasar seems to have a very instinctive method and depends a lot on the individual use of it.

Unless you actually see someone doing the training it is very hard to know whether the method is at fault or it's use.

For example, if you were using a clicker and the trainer was consistently either too late to click or to give the associated reward or maybe too early to do so; then it wouldn't work very well. Would you then say the "Clicker training didn't work!"?

BTW what did they use that was successful?

Like I said previously I don't know what other method they used but it wasn't Ceasar's. I have seen them use and they told us about Ceasar, but then they realized it wasn't working so theys stopped using it.

[G-burg]

Unless you actually see someone doing the training it is very hard to know whether the method is at fault or it's use.

And this is why so many people are unsuccessful at training because they watch a tv show, videos, use message boards or read books but really don't understand the concept.. I guess it's like trying to be a mechanic or plumber from a book.. You just never get it unless you have a good teacher/instructor to make sure you are doing it correctly..

They see a method but don't really know how to apply or understand it fully. So it back fires!

[Good_Karma]

Originally Posted by G-burg

And this is why so many people are unsuccessful at training because they watch a tv show, videos, use message boards or read books but really don't understand the concept.. I guess it's like trying to be a mechanic or plumber from a book.. You just never get it unless you have a good teacher/instructor to make sure you are doing it correctly..

They see a method but don't really know how to apply or understand it fully. So it back fires!

Actually, you can totally learn these things from a book. DH and I built our own house that way, including plumbing and electrical. But I agree with the point you were trying to make. Even if you attend obedience classes and see an instructor in action, it can still be hard to bring that lesson home and apply it to your dog. I also think some of us have a natural talent towards training (not myself unfortunately) and that makes us wonder why others can't seem to make their own dogs behave properly.

[Dawn]

I like victoria over ceasser...he makes me nervous in his training.

Victoria is coming to our area in October and using some of shelter dogs in her show.
should be intersting.

[DCluver33]

i'm going to point out one thing...isn't Cesar a behaviorist? cuz he mentions in his show "he rehabilitates dogs and trains people" so doesn't that make him a behaviorist? behaviorist and trainer are two different things.

[lovemybuddy]

I take bits and pieces from both, and from books I read, etc. What a like about Ceasar is his advice to be calm and assertive with your dog. Buddy really responds well to this. I like how Ceasar builds a person's confidence around their dogs. I used this with my son, told him to imagine how he felt after he hits a homerun, and to feel that way as he is walking Buddy. His shoulders go back, his chest goes out, and his confidence is apparent. Buddy gets right in place and behaves well for my son when he is feeling confident. I also agree with Caesar in the area of making a dog work for his food (Buddy goes for a focused walk first thing every morning), that a tired dog is a good dog, and that dogs need rules, boundaries, and limitations. (Heck, I think all of the above works when raising kids, too, lol!!) I don't use all of what Caesar teaches, but the stuff I mentioned really helps us in raising Buddy.

I like Victoria because she does a lot things that the trainer I go to does. So, it just makes sense to me, and to Buddy. (My trainer does not like Caesar, lol!)

So, I like them both, only take away from them the things that are useful and work for us.

I'm still learning, day by day, from Buddy, on what works for him. Still have issues that we're working on. But life would be boring if everything and everyone was perfect, right?