ceaser and victoria stillwell O.o

[Dainerra]

I've only seen 1 episode where Cesar "choked out" a dog. And, I really can't think of any other option in that instance. He was walking the dog toward another dog (can't think of any other way to begin training a dog to be around other dogs). The dog went from 0 to 60 in his reaction, no beginning posturing that said "hey, I'm reaching my limit to how close I can get to another dog" When Cesar stopped walking and didn't let him approach the other dog, he instantly turned on Cesar.
He was holding the dog at arm's length, off the ground, because there was no other way to stop the dog from attacking him. Each time he gave the slightest slack in the leash, the dog went for him. It was purely frustration and anger, but that doesn't change the fact that he had to do SOMETHING to stop the dog.

Do I agree with everything? No, but I also believe that we don't see 99.9% of what he does. We only see the parts that are edited that the network thinks will draw in viewers.
I'm sure that the same can be said for Victoria.
I think, at the core, they have the same attitude - they walk into the room with the expectation that the dog will do as they say. A complete 180 from the owners, many of whom have zero expectations of the dog at best. At worst, they expect the WORST from their dogs and that is what they get.

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by AbbyK9

However, not all hard dogs need to be choked into submission in order to train them and work with them. I've never had to choke my Malinois off a bite, or roll her, or prong her, or hit her to get her to listen to me.

What would you do to get your dog to release a bite if she didn't want to, and was not really in the mood for a treat at the time? Do you think she would release because she wants to please you?

BTW, I haven't had to "choke my dog into submission" yet either.

Did Cesar ever suggest hitting a dog to get a dog to listen to him? Do you know what show that was because I don't remember any in which he did?

[Hercules]

**** cesar... everything he calls training I call animal cruelty, I LOVE Victoria, I watch her show as much as I can and I have learned SOOO much from her, her training methods work soooo well for me and my boy.

[Mac's Mom]

Originally Posted by Good_Karma

I guess the point of this long post is that you can't ever say that one method of training is the best, especially not with all dogs. Bad behaviors can not all be corrected in the same manner. Speaking in such broad generalities is a mistake.

I also wish that people would allow for the remote possibility of being wrong about some things. There is a lot of debate on these kind of issues, but very little swaying of opinions. Few of us seem to be able to concede a point on anything.

I agree.

[Ace952]

I have watched both and both have their positive & negatives.
I personally prefer Cesar to Victoria. Cesar's methods worked for me and I couldn't have been happier with the results.
Just b/c I am not a fan of Victoria does it mean that I will bash her. Hey she has her own show with her own followers and at the end of the day if someone can watch something and learn and apply it to their situation and it works, then great. The same goes for Cesar. Victoria doesn't really work with the type of cases that Cesar works with and vice versa.
Do I think Casar can be rough at times? Sure. But at the end he has passed on some knowledge and helped the person with their situation and it is up to them to continue and follow thru.

I think people take it more personal than they need to. Look at what problems you have and try some methods from both and see what works for you and leave it at that. At the end of the day both people have helped dog owners become more aware of their actions as to why theeir dogs are the way they are and what techniques they can try to correct it. People say Cesar is all force but he is open to try different techniques and you see it more on his later shows than his earliers one's.

You have to use what works for you and move forward. It situation may require a different technique.

I agree with someone said and Cesar points this out which I had to learn, "Not all dog lovers make the best dog owners."

[AbbyK9]

What would you do to get your dog to release a bite if she didn't want to, and was not really in the mood for a treat at the time? Do you think she would release because she wants to please you?

First, I do not use any food rewards in bite work. Different type of work and different type of drive than obedience work where I do sometimes use food. In bite work, the sleeve usually serves as the reward, or a ball or tug.

Second, my dog "outs" the sleeve because I tell her to out the sleeve, no if's, and's or but's. If you don't have the obedience necessary to get your dog to out without choking the dog off, then you don't have the necessary obedience to do protection work with your dog, regardless of how much your dog enjoys getting that bite. I spend much more time doing obedience and working on nice, reliable stays and outs than I do on getting the bite and improving the bite.

K-9 Cop magazine had a very nice article on training a reliable out a while back, I believe it was in October 2009 but would have to look to be sure. Amazingly enough, the folks who wrote that very good article also feel that choking a dog off the bite is not a solution, but points to an obedience problem. Imagine that. They recommend working it with two long leads, to where the dog is corrected by being pulled INTO the sleeve (rather than choked off) on the out, as well as going back to basics of working obedience before addressing the out issue. You should get the magazine, it has some great articles.

Did Cesar ever suggest hitting a dog to get a dog to listen to him?

I didn't suggest that Cesar was hitting the dogs he is working with, I was just using hitting as an example of things I don't need to do just to get my dog to "out".

That said, Cesar is constantly making physical contacts with the dogs he works with, whether he's "tapping" them with his feet (in some cases those seem to be much more than a "tap") or poking them with his fingers, etc.

I agree that a lot of Cesar's more recent episodes are gentler than some of his early episodes - I bet that has something to do with the amount of feedback the show gets on forums such as this, and in letters/emails/etc. to the channels that run them and the company that produces them.

[G-burg]

I think people take it more personal than they need to. Look at what problems you have and try some methods from both and see what works for you and leave it at that. At the end of the day both people have helped dog owners become more aware of their actions as to why theeir dogs are the way they are and what techniques they can try to correct it. People say Cesar is all force but he is open to try different techniques and you see it more on his later shows than his earliers one's.

You have to use what works for you and move forward. It situation may require a different technique.

I agree with someone who said and Cesar points this out which I had to learn, "Not all dog lovers make the best dog owners."

Couldn't agree more!!

[DCluver33]

I've seen both shows and I like both of them, but do I agree with everything they do? of course not. I generally don't like "alpha rolling" my dogs, but in some circumstances I've had to, like sunday night when Dodger attacked my cat I had to roll him on his side in order to keep him from going after her again once I got him off her, was there another way to get him off her? I'm sure, but in that time the first thing that popped in my head to keep him from going after her and tell him that that's not ok was to put him on his side. I don't like the tapping that Cesar does, but I've had to do it to remind my dogs to keep focused on me and not what they were focused on because a verbal saying didn't work and let me make myself clear I never ever kick or hit my dogs i just give then a light tap with my foot or hand if they really need it and nothing else is working. I agree with some of the other posters here that Victoria is a little too preachy. I've used things from both trainers and they've all worked. I like to use a mix of both because they get the positive and the discipline. But everyone and every dog is different some dogs may respond better to Cesar's style and some may respond better to Victoria's style. To me it's what ever the dog responds better to then that's what you use.

[APBTLove]

Originally Posted by codmaster

What about his "choking out"? Did it work? And my guess is that it wasn't the first thing he would try for the dog? How about if it was the last step before the needle? Then is it a thing to try or not?

Depends on how reactive the dog is and a host of other things to consider before deciding on a training approach - that is why they are considered pros!

As far as your "red zone" dog - if you can live with him like he is, more power to you and also a good luxk to you.

You know that Victoria does not simply stand there and feed dogs treats. That is an odd thing to say, that she only feeds them..


No, he didn't. He went "SHH!" and collar popped her a few times. She still reacted to another dog on a walk (as expected) and he slammed her down and choked her until she stopped moving (after the other dog had passed), so he showed no control of her other than physical..

I do not understand why you would kill a dog simply because it is dog-aggressive, so it wasn't "Fix this dog or it dies". She was dog reactive, she was a bully breed, a breed where dog-reactivity is normal.. If you don't want it don't get the breed.

Thank you.

[APBTLove]

Originally Posted by Dainerra

I've only seen 1 episode where Cesar "choked out" a dog. And, I really can't think of any other option in that instance. He was walking the dog toward another dog (can't think of any other way to begin training a dog to be around other dogs). The dog went from 0 to 60 in his reaction, no beginning posturing that said "hey, I'm reaching my limit to how close I can get to another dog" When Cesar stopped walking and didn't let him approach the other dog, he instantly turned on Cesar.
He was holding the dog at arm's length, off the ground, because there was no other way to stop the dog from attacking him. Each time he gave the slightest slack in the leash, the dog went for him. It was purely frustration and anger, but that doesn't change the fact that he had to do SOMETHING to stop the dog.

Do I agree with everything? No, but I also believe that we don't see 99.9% of what he does. We only see the parts that are edited that the network thinks will draw in viewers.
I'm sure that the same can be said for Victoria.
I think, at the core, they have the same attitude - they walk into the room with the expectation that the dog will do as they say. A complete 180 from the owners, many of whom have zero expectations of the dog at best. At worst, they expect the WORST from their dogs and that is what they get.

This pup was a female pit mix... I think I know the dog you are talking about though.