ceaser and victoria stillwell O.o

[CalmLeader]

Cesar Millan without a doubt. There is a great article I recommend to understand Millan better: "What the Dog Saw" by Gladwell gladwell dot com - What the Dog Saw

Cesar Millan grew up with dog packs around him and developed a pretty unique insight into the psychological dynamic in dog packs, their social structure and how dogs relate to one another and maintain order and balance in a pack. He uses these great insights to train people on how to have a better relationship with their dogs by understanding them and addressing their needs from a dog’s point of view.

In the western world people often have a tendency to view their dogs as another kid in the family. In my work (I am a dog trainer and rehabilitator myself) I find that to be one of the biggest problems. People spoil their dogs based on their selfish needs to shower them with love. And while most people have the best, most loving (from their point of view) intentions, they do not really love their dog in the true meaning of the word. Loving your dog means to accept his nature, seek to understand and provide him with what he needs and not what we think he should enjoy - this is what Cesar Millan advocates.

He shows people how putting themselves in a state of calm-assertiveness their dogs will naturally follow them and behave better because is it’s programmed in their DNA to seek out balance and stability and follow that naturally. Most people are not calm and relaxed (or assertive) when they are with their dogs because of whatever is going on in their lives. Most people didn’t understand how this affected their dogs and what behavioral consequences it had. Cesar Millan has changed that and brought awareness to these connections to the general public. If you see a poorly behaved dog (pulling on the walk, jumping on people, excessive barking, aggression, etc.) there is always a person that is responsible for that dog’s condition (state of mind) as by nature dogs are balanced. It is not the dog. It is the owner who is responsible. Cesar Millan shows people that if they provide their dog with sufficient exercise, structure and affection (in that order) their dogs will naturally accept them as their leaders and return to a state of balance where most issues resolve themselves.

Cesar also does rehabilitation work that goes beyond what any normal dog owner can fix i.e. for severe aggression (dogs who want to kill), extreme anxiety, etc. He uses his own balanced dog pack in the Los Angeles Dog Psychology Center to bring these dogs back into their natural, balanced state with help of their doggy peers - 'the power of the pack' as he calls it. He has rehabilitated many dogs other 'trainers' recommended to have euthanized as he understands dogs better than many. He does sometimes get criticized for his methodology and approach of 'working with nature' but that is usually by people who don’t quite grasp nature’s basic concepts when it comes to dogs.

I watch both shows out of professional interest and I do use positive reinforcement where possible and so does Cesar Millan. I would at some point like to see a compelling argument for Victoria Stillwell's approach of 'positive ONLY' training. In one of Victoria's 2009 episodes I saw her advocating (together with a vet) that a particular dog with separation anxiety should be put on anti-anxiety medication. Now that is TRUE animal cruelty in my view and a complete humanization of an animal that is really not to its benefit at all. Anyone who thinks that it is a 'positive' approach to drugging a dog your methods don’t work on should really take a look at the Cesar Millan DVD 'Common Canine Misbehaviors', where he shows how to address separation anxiety with CALM-ASSERTIVE leadership. He teaches the owners how to bring their dog back to balance and resolve this issue and he doesn’t touch the dog even once. Same issue, different methods, which is healthier for the dog?

Also, in the episode 'Untamed and Untrained' from 2008, Victoria Stillwell diagnosed 2 dogs (Olivia and Sophia) as never be able to be together in one room alone off leash as one was attacking the other. She also spoke of the dogs being 'emotional' in each other's presence. I have to say that she is not a very impressive trainer. These dogs can absolutely be returned to a balanced co-existence and dogs are not emotional about other dogs in ways like "they don't like each other". Victoria did make good progress with Olivia and Sophia but didn't seem to fully understand that this was just the beginning of where this can be taken. If she would have only been able to teach the owners how to be true calm-assertive pack leaders and reclaim the position, they lost to their dogs they could have made it all the way. Victoria doesn't really seem to understand the true nature of dogs and once again humanizes them (although she says she doesn't). Instead of criticizing Cesar Millan on a regular basis, she would benefit from getting some lessons from him on how to deal with imbalances in dogs like that properly, and working with Mother Nature's blue print. She showed some good positive reinforcement techniques (which Cesar Millan uses too where appropriate by the way) but would really do herself and her clients a huge favor by not denouncing things she clearly doesn't understand properly. If I knew who these poor people where I might go there myself just to help them, as I feel really sorry for them having to think, their dogs can never get along; Stillwell should be ashamed of herself.

Based on what I have seen from both of them I would never let Stillwell anywhere near my dog. Cesar Millan on the other hand would be very welcome to visit my German Shepherd anytime

[Zoeys mom]

I think it's hard to compare these two trainers in that they deal with very different kinds of issues on their shows. Since the media made Stillwell the "positive" trainer and Cesar the "dominant" trainer they seem to have dogs on each show that will purposely fit this image. There are times when positive reinforcement is necessary like when first teaching a command or when the command is followed subsequently. You want your dog to know they have done something right and reward the behavior as well as you want to be positive when first teaching the behavior. However, once a command is understood or when aggression arises there has to be some negative consequence to differentiate right from wrong. This isn't to humanize dogs, but they are intelligent enough to know when they display X behavior Y happens and Y is not pleasant. While I'm not a fan of the alpha roll I couldn't and wouldn't live without my prong collar and while I've never needed a shock collar the idea isn't disturbing to me. Dogs know the difference between their owner using a praising voice and shoving hot dogs in their mouth, and their owner using a firm low voice and popping their prong collar. They need both positive and negative stimuli to learn right from wrong.

So to answer the question I don't love Stillwell personally nor do I watch her show. Cesar tends to be to made for tv for my likes either though between the two I'd love to spend a day with him off camera

[sagelfn]

Originally Posted by CalmLeader

If you see a poorly behaved dog (pulling on the walk, jumping on people, excessive barking, aggression, etc.) there is always a person that is responsible for that dog’s condition (state of mind) as by nature dogs are balanced. It is not the dog. It is the owner who is responsible.

That is not entirely true. There are many many dogs out there with poor nerves due to genetics not lack of training. This also plays a part in some dogs needing medication.

Cesar Millan shows people that if they provide their dog with sufficient exercise, structure and affection (in that order) their dogs will naturally accept them as their leaders and return to a state of balance where most issues resolve themselves.

I think this is common sense(order does not matter). Tired dogs are good dogs..how old is that saying? Too often people have gotten a dog based on looks and do not know what the dog needs (exercise both mental and physical)

I think of my dog as my furkid, I don't humanize him. Some people have a problem with that but not all. I think people who train their dogs and are responsible pet owners don't have an issue of humanizing dogs.

I think its completely possible to train some dogs with only positive methods. If the dog does not need any physical corrections why use them? whats wrong with trying positive first? I think saying she should be ashamed of herself is ridiculous. She's helped a lot of people and whether you agree with her methods or not she's done more good than harm, same for Ceasar.

[Gusto's Mommy]

Originally Posted by ChristenHolden

I like them both but I'm one of the few that likes ceaser. Haven't watched victoria in a long time. I'm far from perfact but I try his ways a lot and so far all my dogs live peacfully as a pack. As soon as they start to bow up to eachother or growl over a treat/toy they get the EEEEEEhhhh soud and I take the toy away. Its worked for 5+ yrs. So far.

Hah Hah! I use EEEEhhhhhh too...it works better than saying No, no, no, no no all the time... which looses its effectiveness on GSD's.... They are like "Excuse me? Mind your own business!"

[AgileGSD]

Originally Posted by Syaoransbear

Caesar Milan is unique in that he has so much confidence and such a commanding presence that dogs automatically know that and don't mess with him.

Someone forgot to tell this dog that Cesar has a commanding presence and isn't to be messed with...

You Tube

You Tube

(and this dog didn't "submit" he simply exhausted himself)

Originally Posted by Syaoransbear

I like his methods. He doesn't take crap from any dog. I think what he's trying to teach is not that you have to dominate the dog all the time, but you should never, ever be dominated by the dog.

Do you believe most dog behavior problems are caused by "dominance"?

Originally Posted by Syaoransbear

BTW, has anyone here seen the show At The End of My Leash with Brad Pattison? Boy is that guy ever pissed off.

[shilorio]

im domenant over my dogs with out doing what he does, that can affect a dog, and my dog is shy, if idid that she would freak. ceasars way didnot work onmy dog but leslie mcdevitt did for sure and so does some of victorias, i use crates though, and pinch collars ets, which she doesnt but oh well hah

[Jessiewessie99]

I don't watch either, I don't even have Animal Planet.lol. But I would choose Victoria over Ceasar anyday. My cousin's use Ceasar 's methods needless to say, they hardly worked

[Syaoransbear]

Originally Posted by AgileGSD

Someone forgot to tell this dog that Cesar has a commanding presence and isn't to be messed with...

I haven't seen every episode, but the ones I've seen where he immediately confronts an aggressive dog it submits to him, and dogs that aren't aggressive usually respect his space when he comes in the door.

Originally Posted by AgileGSD

Do you believe most dog behavior problems are caused by "dominance"?

Not exactly. I think the more common dog behavioral problems are created by owners who spoil their dogs so that the dog thinks it's allowed to act however it wants to. These would be owners would don't like it when their dogs jump up on them or eats things off the counter, but let them do it anyway and just deal with it because their dog is their 'baby'.

Originally Posted by AgileGSD

I don't understand what you mean by "". Does that mean you've seen the show, or not? I actually just finished watching that show an hour ago and Brad Pattison said "I'm really pissed off right now" 3 times in one episode, lol.

[shilorio]

Originally Posted by Syaoransbear

I haven't seen every episode, but the ones I've seen where he immediately confronts an aggressive dog it submits to him, and dogs that aren't aggressive usually respect his space when he comes in the door.



Not exactly. I think the more common dog behavioral problems are created by owners who spoil their dogs so that the dog thinks it's allowed to act however it wants to. These would be owners would don't like it when their dogs jump up on them or eats things off the counter, but let them do it anyway and just deal with it because their dog is their 'baby'.



I don't understand what you mean by "". Does that mean you've seen the show, or not? I actually just finished watching that show an hour ago and Brad Pattison said "I'm really pissed off right now" 3 times in one episode, lol.

haha thats to funny what channel is that show on?

[Syaoransbear]

Originally Posted by shilorio

haha thats to funny what channel is that show on?

It's on the SLICE network. I think it's canadian.

One time he was trying to demonstrate to the owners what it's like to give up a dog, so he threw their son on their trampoline and said he was worthless and they should get rid of him lol. I think he makes people cry in every episode.