ceaser and victoria stillwell O.o

[AgileGSD]

Originally Posted by Ace952

Yes he states that all the time and people forget that. He takes on dogs that have psychological problems. He doesn't train dogs. Trains humans how to become better dogs owners.

Dogs with psychological problems such as???


All dog trainers/instructors/behaviorists/whatever they call themselves who work with owners one on one or in a group setting are actually training humans, not dogs. That is the nature of giving instruction on dog training to other people

[Gwenhwyfair]

I know what you are saying. My grandparents (Opa was training GSDs in Germany before WWII) and parents trained dogs pretty darn well without the Cesars and Victorias of the world. Some of it is/was just plain common sense.

I think there has been a shift in the public perception of companion animals where they anthromorphize** more the generations past. Cesar and Victoria, using modern communications technology are the first to combat the trend. It's a good thing IMO. Why they get the credit, they are better at delivering their message, they have the certain quality or presence which lends itself to mass media.

I see this with horse trainers as well. Monty Roberts 'mainstreamed' the whole horse whisperer training methodology and other trainers have become well known tweaking his methods or going in a completely different direction. They have to brand themselves in order to sell more books and videos.

One thing can be certain, I for one am glad that over all there has been a turn away from harsher cruel methods....for the most part.

Agree with you about Cesar's methods, as I said Victoria's methods are safer for the average dog owner.


(**I own a pet sitting service, I deal with the average pet owning 'masses'. I call 'em my clients. Have pity on me!! Actually most people I deal with are wonderful and really do mean well. Some are misguided though.... )

Originally Posted by Cassidy's Mom

Cesar is not the first to suggest that we remain calm when training our dogs, or to be assertive vs wimpy in our dealings with them, he just made it into a buzzword that has caught on with the general public. Victoria did not "learn" this from him. Any decent trainer will tell you to remain calm, especially with a dog that is NOT calm, and to work with confidence and assurance. It annoys me when people act like this (and "treating a dog like a dog" and reminding people that dogs need sufficient exercise) are things that Cesar came up with on his own and that set him apart from other trainers. It's just not so!

EVERYBODY will tell you you need to give your dog plenty of exercise (not just physical, but mental too) and to interact with them as much as possible rather than just leaving them in the yard all day. EVERYONE will tell you that you need to treat dogs like dogs rather that furry little humans. And if you want your dog to be calm, reinforce THAT and stop reinforcing the kind of behavior that you DON'T want. I learned this in my first OB class with Cassidy 10 years ago, long before Cesar became famous - it was widely known and practiced for some time long before then. Really, none of this is at all new or revolutionary, and it's beyond me why Cesar gets all the credit for it.

Yes, he's brought some common sense to the clueless masses who previously had no idea that you have to actually TRAIN a dog, and he deserves some credit for that. But that can actually be dangerous because some of those clueless masses are going to be inclined to try some of his methods, disclaimer aside, that they have no business trying on their own.

[Emoore]

Originally Posted by Cassidy's Mom

Yes, he's brought some common sense to the clueless masses who previously had no idea that you have to actually TRAIN a dog, and he deserves some credit for that. But that can actually be dangerous because some of those clueless masses are going to be inclined to try some of his methods, disclaimer aside, that they have no business trying on their own.

That's just TV. I'm a personal trainer and say the same things all the time about the Biggest Loser. A lot of what Cesar does is done for good TV, just like people on TBL losing 15-20lb per week, and is no more realistic. IMHO, anybody who thinks they should alpha-roll their aggressive Rottweiler or try to lose 25lb in one week deserves what they get.

[CalmLeader]

Originally Posted by AbbyK9

Cesar's dominance theory and his constant comparison between dogs and wolves are outdated. Stick around this forum for a while and read some of the research on the dominance theory that's out there. Maybe you'll learn something that goes beyond "if the dog doesn't do what I want it to do, the dog is trying to be dominant and take charge and doesn't respect me as a leader."



In nature, the "dominant" dog does not physically grab and force another dog onto its side to make it submit. Submission by rolling over is an OFFERED behavior, not a forced one. And, in nature, another dog does not choke a dog by a slip collar to make it behave. Well, not that I've seen, anyway.

I appreciate your thoughful post but offer 2 points of view:

I have a 4 year old GSD myself who I rescued from a shelter over a year ago. When I adopted him he had animal aggression issues and wanted to eat my cats and get any dog he saw (except my own other dogs). Using Cesar Millan's approach of calm-asssertive leadership and not letting my GSD dog get away with anything have turned him around. We are now training for the CGC test later this year and he no longer cares about my cats. He even corrects my 11 month old pit bull when she takes an interest in the cats. With other dogs he gets along fine now if they are calm or playful. He still gets excited and wants to play but only really has issues now when another dog is aggressive or dominant (mounting or other challenges) towards him. Overall it is a great succes story and Cesar's Way was what worked for me and many other dogs I have trained.

I do also see my pit bull and german shepherd play every day and he will absolutely alpha-roll my pit bull if she gets out of line or plays too rough (which she does regularly - she's a pit ). It does work for those two so I can't really agree with your statement that dogs don't do that.

[Ace952]

Originally Posted by AgileGSD

Dogs with psychological problems such as???


All dog trainers/instructors/behaviorists/whatever they call themselves who work with owners one on one or in a group setting are actually training humans, not dogs. That is the nature of giving instruction on dog training to other people

Exactly nd that is why Cesar always says, "I train humans".

As far as the dog's psychological problems?? They get them from having owners who have no clue about how to work with them and end up screwing up the dog.

[AgileGSD]

Originally Posted by Ace952

As far as the dog's psychological problems?? They get them from having owners who have no clue about how to work with them and end up screwing up the dog.

What do you consider psychological problems in dogs?

Originally Posted by CalmLeader

I do also see my pit bull and german shepherd play every day and he will absolutely alpha-roll my pit bull if she gets out of line or plays too rough (which she does regularly - she's a pit ). It does work for those two so I can't really agree with your statement that dogs don't do that.

I'm not sure what you're seeing that you have deemed an "alpha roll" but you may want to be careful not to let the play get to this point. Repeated exposure to such interactions can trigger APBTs to decide to fight.

[Victoria_Lynn]

Victoria's method work in theory, but when applied in an "everyday scenario"...not so much.

Cesear is the bomb! I love his proven theory. I've tried several of his techniques on my chi mix and it has totally worked.

Maya, my GSD, is naturally well behaved. I'm convinced she is the smartest and most obedient dog on the planet!

[CalmLeader]

Originally Posted by AgileGSD

What do you consider psychological problems in dogs?



I'm not sure what you're seeing that you have deemed an "alpha roll" but you may want to be careful not to let the play get to this point. Repeated exposure to such interactions can trigger APBTs to decide to fight.

I do know the difference between play and fight. My two guys just play rough with each other and so do many powerful dogs I have observed over the years. I am glad to have 2 dogs who can play with one another in a meaningful way. They both have an outlet for this side of them that I as a person would not be able to provide. It's just one of the benefits of having multiple dogs of the same engery level and intensity. It's a good thing. I generally find watching dogs play very educational about their natural way of being.